Sorry, I just have a hard time believing that someone who seduces someone else is the victim, or that he is going to be traumatized by the experience and regret it. I think it's something that is reviled mostly because, as adults, we view the situation as absolutely icky, but that sentiment isn't shared by the ones who actually take part in it. In other words, I think it's a victimless crime. But what do I know.

Wait, when did it turn into "adult seducing a child"? "defending a 22 year old predator who seduced and raped a 14 year old boy"? I'm pretty sure his story was about a 14-year-old seducing the adult. That's exactly what I mean by being misleading, and you call it "splitting hairs", lol.

And no, having the ability to understand nuance and complexity is not "splitting hairs". There is a difference between rape and statuary-rape, both legally and in the minds of most people, and a difference between a child and a teenager. It's not like once you turn 18 you suddenly turn from a mindless child into a prudent adult. Calling that situation "child rape" is dishonest, misleading, and reeks of populism.

You can go on acting like the world is split into completely evil demons and innocent abused angels, but that would just make you look like a fanatic simpleton.

 

It's the same thing. I was trying to sanitize it for you so you'd understand why I was calling it rape. A 22 year old seducing and having sex with a 14 year old is rape. Period. Full stop. End of conversation. I don't give a shit if the 14 year old consented, because a 14 year old can't consent to sex with a 22 year old. You've got a adult predator who should know better on one side, and a child on the other. Those are the facts. The fact that you're hiding behind the word 'statutory' as if it means a child didn't get sexually assaulted by an adult is fucking disgusting.

Yeah, defending children from adult predators make me a populist fanatical simpleton. If we are just going to be throwing names at each other, you tolerate the rape of children. What else is anyone here supposed to think when you are clearly alright with grown adults having non-consensual sex with 14 year olds?

 

See, you're being misleading and lacking any nuance again. It's very much not the same thing. You complete changed his story for the sake of making it sound worse and now you pretend it's for my own sake.

Again, how is the adult in that case a predator? from the way it sounds, the teen was the one who initiated it. That simply isn't what you call predatory, in any sense of the word.

I'm not calling you names, I'm telling you that if this is the way you're going to conduct yourself in arguments, you're going to make a really bad impression, and people will eventually view you as a dishonest, misleading populist whose word they cannot trust, simply because you can't present things without distorting them and making them worse.

Since you continuously refuse to argue honestly without constantly changing facts, I won't waste any more of my time, and just stop this argument here. I suppose it just reinforces the notion that ethics are completely subjective.

 

Man it doesn't matter who initiates it. An adult having sex with a 14 year old is rape. Have you interacted with someone that age recently? They are literal children.

I'm honestly at a bit of a loss on how to get across to you here, because I don't know how anyone can view a sexual relationship with such an age gulf in that age range as remotely ok.

 

I personally have a hard time believing that any sane adult could be seduced by a 14-year-old, but that's just me.

 

Well, I thought I'll skip this one, but since it continues to be discussed…

Unlike in real life, the story shows us inner thoughts and feelings of the characters, so we can tell pretty reasonably if it's a morally wrong relationship or not, so we don't actually need to express any blanket judgment on all stories, which is why it's so weird to me that people feel so strongly about the need to denounce all or nothing.

I've seen stories where the relationship was set up fine and felt morally fine. I also remember one story (I don't remember the name, but it was a story with an interesting start and a name related to one of the Luna theories regarding the Ministry), where the relationship was set up as Tonks setting boundaries and getting through her "nervosity" about the relationship, but honestly sounded really predatorial.

 

I summarized this trash thread so you don't have to read it. Opinions presented fall broadly into three camps:

Camp 1: No, just no.

Argument: She is a cop, he is a child in school. Do we actually need to explain this one?

Camp 2: Well maybe, but in this case no.

Argument: She is a cop, he is a child in school but really our moral disgust comes from the difference in maturity so maybe it might be okay in other circumstances. Discussion of other circumstances.

Camp 3: Telling on themselves.

Argument: It's fine because 1.) Libertarian reasons 2.) It's fiction get over yourself, what are you the morality police? 3.) My friend raped a kid in Russia and then they had a kid. 4.) Statutory rape isn't actually real rape.

 

It matters a lot because that story was simply not an example of predatory behaviour. You can argue against this kind of relationship without trying to make it sound even worse at every turn. Or you can ignore any detail and nuance because, what does it matter, the world is black and white, right?

 

The story as told by the friend who defends the rape tries to paint the rape in the 'best' possible light, shocking. Also, still rape. A 14 year old cannot consent, and any 22 year old claiming to be seduced by a 14 year old is a predator. How are we still arguing this? Are you actually arguing that a 14 year old can "ask for it" @Atram Noctem from a 22 year old?

... Have you seen 14 year olds? In what world is a 22 year old "giving in" to the advances of a 14 year old not a predator?

 

Closest one I can think of would be a naive, mentally challenged 22 year old and a 14 year old sociopath/psychopath. So still a crime, but just the other way around.

 

When I was 14 a 20 something year old who was staying in our house for a few days came onto me in front of my mam, believe it or not. I've always looked a lot older than I am, I was almost never id'd buying alcohol etc. I told her that I was 14 and she obviously stopped, because she'd made a mistake. But, if my mam hadn't been there, and I'd went with it, would she have been a rapist? I wouldn't think so. If anything, I'd be at fault for intentionally misleading her.

 

I think this comes down to a misunderstanding of consent?

@Atram Noctem

Could you elaborate on what your definition of consent is?

Because for non-rapists, if you, as a non-impaired adult come across someone that is A. Blackout drunk B. Drugged/roofied C. Unconscious D. Severely mentally handicapped or E. A literal child…

Then no matter what you think they want, they cannot consent to having sex with you. They are impaired or lack the brain development necessary for informed consent.

Children and unconscious people cannot seduce you. There is no nuance in this situation.

 

In this case, yes, yes it is. There's no nuance to having sexual relations with a child. Jesus christ dude.

 

I will never understand why so many of you fuckers choose this hill to die on.

 

I know right?

I understand that the world went crazy a couple years ago and that racism and homophobia and transphobia and a while host of other deplorable reprobate nonsense is apparently back on the table, but child rape and pedophilia?

(Yeah, I said pedophilia. Save the 'you mean ephebophilia' comments)

 

Oh, are we just changing the story now to fit our view of the world? And, no, a prey is not a predator, no matter how much you are disgusted by their actions.

Except that, in reality, they can. It's simply a fact. A 14-year-old can decide that he likes a 22-year-old, and predate on her. And no, 14-year-olds aren't mindless zombies who only suddenly develop a consciousness when they hit the approved age of consent. You can go on pretending that aren't capable of any judgement, that they are just poor innocent bunnies with no agency, but I don't.

Tell that to the legal system, that definitely sees the nuance and treats statuary-rape and violent rape as very different things (they also treat sexual relations with children or teens as different things).

 

Perhaps a story will help this disconnect. When I was 18, I heard about 3 15 year old boys who got life sentences without the possibility of parole for forcibly raping a girl. They 100% did it of their own volition, no one was forcing them into it, no one had even suggested it. Is it the case, then, that a minor who is below the age of consent can without being coerced put a dick in a hole? Yes. Would it still be statutory rape if an adult had sex with one of those three boys? Also yes. Basically, they did something without being tricked or coerced, but they did not exactly know what they were doing, not in the way that an adult would know. It's not as if they were innocent, or as if it was a complete accident, because they had to force her, and they should have known not to force anyone to do anything, but it's as if they held her down and injected her with heroin; they didn't know what effect it was going to have. If they ever get out, it'll be too soon, but every day that they're in prison, they still have the right to expect punishment if someone rapes them.

 

I don't know about moral, but "statuary" rape does sound like a cold and hard act. Other than Pygmalion, I don't recall having read any fic about it.

 

Just to clarify, in Spain age of consent was raised from 13 to 16 in 2015, according to UN-CRC recommendations, so that map is a bit dated. This segues into how morals are somehow dependent on culture. In less sheltered societies what we consider children have to pull their own weight earlier in their lives and are forced to mature faster, so the concept of adulthood seems elastic to some point. I'm not sure this could apply to Rowling's magical Britain, but it might be pertinent to the morality of reading stories about those kind of environments, fictional or historic.

 

Okay, well, as promised, welcome to the sensible piss-yellow part of the world. I would say that America or at least various parts of it are relatively sheltered, but we seem to want people to grow up in stages rather than having everything hit them like a truck at 18. I'm not saying that's the best way of doing it, but I do see the reason in it.