Would Adava Kedavra work on a Balrog? Asking because that might have helped in Shadow of Angmar.

 

I imagine it would have blown a hole in the Balrog, being shadow and flame given a physical form right? Probably incensed it but ultimately not put it down.

 

In that case the swords and stuff mightn't have worked so well either. IDK.

 

We have no idea on the mechanics of how the killing curse works. But we have seen it used on several mammals and a spider so it works on a variety of animals.

But the fact it is not used on Dementors, and they are specifically said to be close to impossible to destroy implies it won’t work on them.

So if it doesn’t work on dementors, and a Balrog is a fallen incarnate angel. I would say no it wouldn’t work on a Balrog.

As it is also a killing curse, not a “inflict enough physical damage to kill something” curse, and it typically leave no trace, I would say it would cause no damage what so ever.

 

The thing is, it appears possible to subdue or maybe even kill a balrog with enough ordinary physical force. I didn't have the impression that force worked on dementors, though I guess interpretations vary. Another idea is cutting spells like diffendo or sectumsepra(sp), which Harry cast in the JKR books.

 

The only Balrogs destroyed are done by Wizards or by super elf’s from Valinor.

We don’t know if it was just physical or a spirit battle as well.

I think physical magic could effect it, but I also think the Balrog could counter it to a heavy degree.

 

What if there was a really big hobbit

 

They would simply eat the other Hobbits.

 

In the story, Harry is able to injure the Balrog with an Elvish but non-magical dagger, and later an Elvish sword. But for whatever reason, he doesn't seem to try any powerful combat spells, even after he is in a position to do so. So I've been wondering.

 

Killing dragons in the wizarding world requires multiple Killing curses to be cast simultaneously (Fantastic Beasts). If a team of Harry Potter styled wizards were to ever make their way to Arda, I'd imagine something similar could work (I'd imagine the chance to actually do such a thing necessitates subduing the Balrog to an extent).

 

I mean, that is never confirmed or even implied. We just know that it takes multiple simultaneously cast stunning charms to break through a Dragon's magic resistant skin. But unlike the the killing curse, the stunning charm isn't supposed to be unblockable.

 

What if the corruption of Numenor were to continue for another Age or half of one, what might have been accomplished by their amassed power?

 

British empire 5000BC.

 

Obviously, this falls into the category of things where there's no true answer, as it's down to whoever is writing the story to decide how the metaphysics of two crossover settings interact, but I can at least say that did consider this exact question at the point when I started planning the story. The nature of the soul and the meaning of mortality are kinda significant themes to both Harry Potter and LOTR, so trying to find a common thread to link them together was something I wanted to do to try and make the setting feel more natural.

First, the obvious bit. Tolkien talks about fea and hroa which are the spirit (or soul) and body respectively, which seems to match the Potter take, at least to some degree, where there is also a distinction between the soul and the body. If we take this and run with it, we can attempt to draw some conclusions.

Men, within Tolkien, have souls that are only weakly bound to the world, and it is their impermanent bodies that hold them there. With the destruction or death of their body, their soul is released back to Eru. Perhaps as a result of this, their experience is also more tightly bound to the physical, and their ability to perceive the Unseen is much more limited than that of the Elves.

I always felt this could be made to match Harry Potter quite neatly. The question then turns to the mode of operation of the Killing Curse. As I see it, there are four options:

1. It kills the body, which forces the soul to depart.
2. It forcibly separates the body and soul, which also causes the soul to depart and the body to die.
   
3. It could also destroy the soul.

Now, I'd say 3 seems unlikely as there's plenty of evidence in Harry Potter that the souls of those killed by the Killing Curse persist. It's entirely possible, of course, that Dumbledore's manifestation is not 'true', but given he engineered his own death it seems unlikely he'd plan for a complete destruction of the soul. So either they don't know the mechanism of the Killing Curse in this case (possible), or it doesn't destroy the soul.

If 2 was true, then we might expect the result of the Killing Curse to be more akin to a Dementor's Kiss. In that case the forcible removal of the soul leaves behind a living husk that remains 'alive' for some time in a kind of catatonic state. Now it's possible that the Killing Curse is merely less 'gentle' than the Kiss, and that the resulting metaphysical trauma results in bodily death, but for now let's consider the final option.

Were 1 the correct option, it would raise questions about Harry's own survival in the Forbidden Forest. There he is hit by the Killing Curse, and the protection of Voldemort using the wrong wand, along with Lily's sacrificial magic being present in Voldemort providing a kind of anchor, means that the Killing Curse's effectiveness is seemingly reduced enough that its 'power' is sufficiently expended by severing the Horcrux from Harry's body that Harry's own soul is given a 'choice' to remain. My intuition is that if option 1 was true, then Harry would either die, or he would not (and the horcrux would either destroyed, or remain) depending on how much the external factor of the Elder Wand's allegiance impacts its effectiveness.

So what I'm left with is a feeling that the Killing Curse probably works by traumatically severing the connection between the body and soul.

But this all seems like a bit of a digression. How does this apply to the case of the Balrog?

Well, the Balrog is an Ainu (well, originally, anyway). A Maiar that has been corrupted by Morgoth, and now an Umaiar. The Ainur are not dualistic beings of body and soul, but instead are composed of a singular eala, or 'being'. It does have a physical form, however (a fana), which is what we see as the being of shadow and flame. The fana is not the same as a hroa, it is something created from the ealar and worn like clothing. It is possible for Ainur to be reduced in their ability to reproduce fanar, but that always seems to be due to their general diminishment as beings.

If we imagine the Killing Curse as separating the soul and body, then my intuition is that a Balrog would simply not be inconvenienced by it. Even if we say that ealar and fanar are the same as fear and hroar (being metaphysical and physical respectively), it is still the case that the eala is in no way dependent on the fana as fear are hroar.

Basically, I'd liken it to the following. The Killing Curse being used on a Man is like instantly sucking an astronaut out of their suit while in space. They (the soul in this analogy) would quickly 'depart'. If you use it on an Ainu, it would be more like tearing off their clothes while they're standing on a pleasantly warm beach. Firstly, they're still fine, and secondly, they can just put their clothes back on.

If anyone's wondering, with Elves it would be like the astronaut situation, only they don't need to breathe anyway (and so don't need the suit to stay 'alive', but they do need its manoeuvring thrusters to be able to actually do anything. They could probably try to put their suit back on, but it's likely they'll float away before they get the chance.

Oh, and for the sake of argument, I tend to prefer interpretations of spells which are less mechanistic, and more conceptual, and generally, I'd say that the Killing Curse doesn't have a primary effect of splitting the soul and body, but instead that its primary effect is 'making things be dead', which in Men is achieved through splitting the soul and body, but in other things can be done in other ways. For example, by blowing up or de-animating animated statues. This could go two ways, either it 'kills' the Balrog by diminishing it to such a degree that it is pretty much 'dead' to all intents and purposes, or it does nothing, because the Balrog, like, say, a wall or the floor, cannot ever be dead because it is not even alive.

That's to say nothing of how the influence of magic is supposed to be formulated as adding notes and melodies to the Music and the question of whether Harry at that point could reasonably hope to 'out-sing' one of the beings that participated in the original music.

TLDR: My intuition is that a Killing Curse would be, at most, a mild inconvenience to the Balrog, and would not do much to diminish them in power. Even if we're using more conceptual spells, I would expect it to either do nothing or to result in a kind of 'battle for control' over the Balrog's connection to its physical form, which it would certainly win.

Depends on so many things, really. Is Sauron still there pulling the strings, or is this a 'they just merked Sauron and kept on being arseholes their own way'?

Figure if they just killed Sauron, they'd probably look to fill the power vacuum in Middle-earth. They took Sauron hostage to stop his followers attacking Numenoreans, but if they just killed him, presumably they'll still have to deal with them in the old-fashioned way. I don't really see this ending any other way than continual wars of conquest against 'dangerous border regions' in a way fairly reminiscent of Rome. However, without Sauron, the start of structured worship of Morgoth is unlikely to come about.

I imagine this would go on for a while before we start to see civil wars among the Numenoreans. Ar Pharazon represents the first time the Kingship was usurped, and if they continued down that path, I doubt it would be the last attempt, and I doubt they'd all end as seemingly bloodlessly as Ar Pharazon's coup.

On the other hand, if Sauron's at the wheel, things get dark. Let's say Sauron doesn't set Numenor up against the Valar and instead decides to use them as his new power base, with him as a 'shadow emperor' pulling the strings of the nominal ruler. Then we get the cult of Morgoth growing stronger, Numenor becoming a new Mordor in terms of industry and conquest, and a much more stable Numenorean Empire due to Sauron's iron grip on power. I don't really see there being anything that could stand against them both. The Elves would probably fuck off West, and everything else would be under Sauron's yoke, at least until Sauron's lust for more power results in fucking around with Valinor. I imagine at this point he'd quickly 'find out', but the world would likely be ruined, either by the ensuing battle, or as a result of Eru getting pissed.

 

Wowww, thanks for that detailed response. It's late here so I'll try to post a follow-up tomorrow or so, but that was great.

 

My only quibble with SBs excellent take is the exact presence of Balrogs.

Ainur and Valar can take physical form, and drop it, like us putting on cloths. They may do it often, and in varying styles.

But then there are Ainur who are incarnate.

The wizards have this thrust upon them to limit their power (willingly).

Melian does this to herself to have a deeper relationship this Thingol and have earthly children. The way she interacts with middle earth is different when she is a regular Ainur, and when she is incarnate.

Balrogs seem to be incarnate, although they themselves have done it, they forged terrible vessels to host their spirits, to give them a different presence in the world. We never see them change form, which would come in handy for them. They are not just wearing the form of a Balrog, they have used their very being to forge a physical body, that is as much a part of them as skin is to you and I.

For the purpose of this debate, I think they are very much body and soul in one. But their “soul” is more potent and powerful than a lesser being.

We know in HP canon Giants a massively resistant to magic (Hagrid takes several point blank stunning spells and shrugs them off and he’s a half breed runt). Nudus are said to take 100 wizard to bring down.

Balrog is the above x100.

Magic would annoy it a bit, if cast really well. A lot of it would start to really piss it off. But one on one, it’s going to do fuck all.

 

So not really a What If, but as someone whose majority of LOTR knowledge came from the movies, it's something I've always wondered about.

Why is Sauron so powerful compared to Gandalf and Saruman or other beings of their level? It's never really made sense to me that the One Ring is so powerful that other beings are incapable of containing the power and disposing of it. That Sauron has the capability of corrupting beings that are also Maiar. Is it as simple as that question is like asking why Boromir is more powerful than a random soldier and that some beings can be of the same race and have different levels of power?

 

Because Sauron was a unrestrained Ainur.

He was part of the OG baddies who rebelled before middle earth was even formed. And even then he was one of the more powerful of the lesser Ainur.

His power is somewhat diminished from his Apex as he has been defeated several times. But at the end of the day he is still a demigod with access to powers and knowledge beyond that of Elves and Men.

The wizards are the same class of being as him, with some natural variation in power. But the Valar (essentially arch angels) knew from history, that going power to power to Sauron would A) cause damage, last time they did this they sunk a continent. B) they wanted the people’s of middle earth to do it themselves.

So they sent guides over to advise the free people of middle earth. They incarnated 5 spirits into the bodies of men, limiting their powers and making them subject to mortal limits (they need to sleep and eat, and they can be killed in body). They were never supposed to go power to power with Sauron, ideally they would never use overt power at all. They were supposed to help and advise (as Gandalf did) the men and elves to take on this fight.

It’s why we almost never see Gandalf use magic, the few times he does, it is to level the playing field when the baddies are using supernatural means.

 

I think that is the part I find unsatisfying. I guess it makes sense with Tolkien being a devout catholic, the whole it's mankind's responsibility to overcome and fix these problems even though Eru was the one who allowed Melkor to corrupt the music.

I've read a lot of SteelBadger's posts as well as the other Tolkien super fans in the various threads on DLP, and they always talk about how if Gandalf was a ring bearer and took the ring with the intention of destroying the ring, it would end up with a corrupted Gandalf. He may be able to take control and prevent Sauron from controlling him but it would result in him being the new tyrant of Middle Earth. Are the forces of corruption so much more powerful that Gandalf is unable to take the ring without losing who he is? Would Gandalf attempting to pick up and truly destroy the ring result in one of the battles from the first age even though Sauron is diminished?

 

There is also the fact that the Valar do not understand men. They get the elves, the elves are in many ways just less powerful Ainur. Their.... relationship with Arda is similar.

Men are utterly different, they are not of Arda (earth) they are visitors.

The Valar gave men a awesome island safe from corruption and loads of resources. With in a few thousand years they launched a fleet to wipe out the Valars home and take it as their own.

The Valar are kind of over giving large direct help. They are now subtle, invisible to all but those who can see their finger prints on a changing wind, or a random chance.

Gandalf V Sauron would not cuss the continent wide devastation of the War off Wrath.