Oh, for the love of.....did you really have to bump up this six month thread? And please, using proper spelling, grammar and spaces between paragraphs. That made me cringe, seriously. Spellcheck is your friend and proper diction is your ally. Think of them like two large men covering your tiny female body in a dark alley. They are rape-preventers, I suggest you use them

The only thing I'll respond to, becaue I do not want to start up this debate again, is that you make a lot of assumptions such as "the muggles know of the wizards ability from information given to them and have a large knowledge of there spells, what they do and how to identify them and what its weakness"

or...

"they would probably expect us to come marching in with muskets"

or..

"the soldiers are trained to know how to overcome while the ignorant wizards refuse to accept the power of technology over magic"

I can't be stuffed reading any more but this was explained a lot better than you put it and there are plenty of counter-debates.

 

The whole "Imperius muggle leaders" would easily by rendered void by Armed guards protecting the leaders.

Wizards vs Muggles with automatic rifles? Please.

 

-Sigh- Fine, I'll get into it again

If Wizards suddenly lost all social and moral conscience, then they would win just through the amount of terror they could cause. I mean, you don't have to strike out at key military targets if you're a terrorist, and you can't have armed guards on every street corner. One Wizard apparates in, throws around a few curses and apparates out. Terror. Fear. Blah, blah, blah. Short term, chaos. Long term, who knows?

And I still think an army of dementors would kick the crap out of everybody, since Muggles can't see them and nothng has been seen to drive them back apart from the Patronus charm. Even if there was some kind of technology that could be used against them, like I said, not on every street corner.

Plus, Muggles have a limited ability to strike back, considering that most of the wizarding places are centred around muggle areas (apart from Hogwarts and Hogsmeade) and muggle repelling wards fool muggles into not noticing them.

So Spacks, sure, the Prime Minister or President or General could stay safe in thier lofty positions while their country crumbles around them with fear against an enemy they're not able to effectively strike back at.

Edit: This is all canon-based stuff, dementors, muggle-repelling wards and whatever ( I keep thinking Leaky Cauldron adn Saint Mungo's type, not the ones where they suddenly 'remember' they have an appointment).

 

To me the 3000+ to 1 problem is pretty mute. Think Inferi, people. It may be dark magic but after a long war most probably wouldn't care nearly as much. What would happen if, for every enemy soldier dead, the opposite side gained a warrior. I don't know how fast or how slow the process is but if it was quick in any sense of the word then wizards would have a lot of canon fodder to throw out. And the imperius, anyone?

I haven't read all these damn pages but to me magic always wins. Fidelius charms, muggle repelling charms, and notice-me-not charms would make it so wizards could have bases anywhere they wanted without problem. And do you people really think that magic doesn't have a projectile stopping charm or just a simple physical shield that could surround the body while the caster shoots out from inside it? And nukes and biological warfare are moot points because the wizarding world works within the muggle world itself so the only way they could kill the wizards is by killing themselves. And wizards seem to be immune to most muggle diseases anyway.

And apparation would absolutely kick the muggle world's ass. Impenetrable military base with guards everywhere and gun turrets? Not any more when wizards can just pop inside.

Of course there is the problem of rogue wizards on the muggle side but if the muggle's objective was t destroy wizard kind than you wouldn't have many traitors any way.

I don't know how much of this has been said or shot down but this is what came to me with a few seconds thinking. I could come up with much more.

 

Oh really kiwi?

Wallabies > Syaoran.

 

There are ways to dispose of the bodies, and besides if there is one thing muggles are apt at dealing with it's zombies.

I don't think all those charms would affect satellite cameras. It might be possible to engineer a virus to only attack people with the wizard gene. And as for being immune, I have never seen any evidence for that--we know they have the Pepper-Up Potion for colds, so they would get them it seems. Also, from the description of Barty Crouch Sr.'s wife's disease, she probably had cancer.

Actually, that's not the problem at all, even if the wizards got all of them, the muggles would still get Squibs and people like the Dursleys who know about the magical world.

 

i agree wizardes would kick the mugle ass so had the first muggle to die will die last!! How would a stpid little muggle could fight against a super powerful wizard (harry potter)

 

Suggestion: Get the spell-checker, read your posts through a second time or don't post at all.

EDIT: Well, Kolskit was a lot less nice about it, but, yeah, that sums it up pretty good.

 

Fuck, man! Use the correct punctuation and grammar! An 'I' is not 'i' and Harry Potter is a not harry potter. You were a failure from your first post and you did nothing but state a useless agreement in this one. Here are your problems.

1)You troll
2)You have a trolling cousin
3)You have awful grammar
4)You have awful punctuation
5)You pissed off the whole of DLP in your intro
6)I'm not being petty here and I'm just going to say it:YOU FAIL AT LIFE!

So, at the end, all I can say is:

GTFO

 

Stu..We're muggles too you idiot.

 

To everyone who pointed out that muggles have the squibs: what about muggle borns? Or half bloods? It's not nearly that simple.

I think that muggles would loose. As many bad fanfictions point out, even if you nuke the wizarding world, you would always have that one survivor who can go back in time and warn everyone. As long as muggles have no way to go back in time, wizards win.

 

Why Muggles own Wizards...

O.K. Here is why wizards will rarely beat muggles.

1st Let us look at the wizarding population v. the muggle population. The wizarding population is tiny, puny. Found that Rowling said there are 3,000 wizards in Britain. http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2005/0705-tlc_mugglenet-anelli-2.htm Divide the world's land mass by Britain's land mass (this calculation is skewed highly upwards, since many places are not suited for humans) and multiply by 10,000. and you get 1.8 million wizards. So each wizard would actually have to kill 3,616.270006 muggles to win. Remember it's probably far higher than that because my calculations give a lot more population to wizards than there actually is. I doubt Albus Dumbledore himself could do that easily. The main factor population gives is room for mistakes. Muggles can make many mistakes and win the war, but wizards need only make one to lose.

In addition, in a pure battle, sheer overwhelming numbers would win. In this discussion it was agreed that a wizard would win a one-on-one duel with a muggle. But would he win a one-on-three thousand duel? To say yes is ridiculous. Of course, there are other ways of hurting muggles if you know how to do it - as the pro-wizarding side wisely points out. This leads to the second great problem, that is:

2nd Wizarding ignorance. This is proved by canon, through Arthur Weasely and the Daily Prophet. Everybody thinks Arthur's that guy crazy about muggles. And yet he doesn't know how to pronounce electricity. One of the only people who's interested in the affairs of muggles in the wizarding world doesn't know basic facts. Look at the Daily Prophet, when it has to tell wizards what a gun is.

The point is this: wizards will be completely unprepared for muggles. There will be no Imperios on prominent muggles, no attacks on the food or water supply of muggles, no exploiting of muggle weaknesses. When the Auror force of 100 sees a muggle army of 105,000 driving at them (assuming they're being attacked), they'll just stare at those weird, shiny, metallic things that are being pointed at them before being mowed down. This bestoys other distinct advantages upon muggles. They can use hidden cameras the size of your nail for spying upon wizards without the latter ever knowing, for one. Or if a muggle nation decides to blitzkrieg the wizards, the initial attack will be overwhelming and a complete victory with the complete element of surprise (not just with the attack but with weapons and tactics too) on their side. But, you protest, muggles don't know anything about wizards either. That leads to my third point:

3rd Over the long run Muggles will beat wizards. There are two main reasons why:

A - Muggles have the ultimate advantage of having wizards on their side: that is, muggle-borns. Discriminated against in the wizarding world and seeing their families being destroyed, this under-class will easily be persuaded to join the muggles and provide valuable information for wizarding weaknesses. Thus, while wizards will be blind to muggle weaknesses, muggles will know everything. They can bomb Hogwarts, attack the Ministry, and know every in and out of magic with the help of muggle-borns. This would especially be the case if the wizarding world attacked the muggles under some dark maniac; targeted for elimination by him, the muggle-borns would flock to the muggle side.

On the other hand, wizards are lacking this trump card. There are no people who would help them - no underclass that feels affection for them and can reveal everything about their weaknesses.

B - Muggles can adapt to magic and to wizarding weapons. They can use the scientific method and a rich tradition of testing stretching back to Galileo to find out the rules and regulations of magic. And magic is limited, with its own rules; that's why Hogwarts exists: to tell students these rules and help them adapt to them. This will go infinitely faster with the help of muggle-borns or a captured/tortured wizard as an experiment. Even without this, muggle science is very fast when confronted with a strong enough enemy - after all, the atomic bomb was created from theory in half a decade. Once they've done this, they can find counters to magic and perhaps even make their own magical weapons - with the help of muggle-borns. The population factor I mentioned above comes in big here: if - and that's a big if - the wizards somehow gain the upper hand despite everything in this argument, the muggles can still burn through their population while desperately searching for a magic solution - pun intended.

Listed below are several wizarding weaknesses:

I. Genetics. We've mapped out the genetic code. Now, all muggles need to do is find out the gene for magic and manipulate it - the results would be interesting, to say the least.

II. Wands. Muggles would quickly find out that wizards are effectively useless without their wands - through battle, dissidents, and experimentation. One of the easiest ways for muggles to win in a war is to destroy the wand-shops.

III. Schools. An entire generation could be decimated with one attack, especially a surprise one to start a war. To strike Hogwarts would cripple the wizards, and the wards there wouldn't be active against nukes in a time of peace. In a time of war, Hogwarts - with its Anti-Apparation wards - would become a death-trap.

An important note to this is that wizards cannot adapt like muggles. Several reasons are that they don't have muggle-borns, a scientific method to use, or population as a hedge against disaster. But the biggest reason is:

4th Wizarding arrogance. This goes slightly in tune with wizarding ignorance, and it is apparent by the supposed superiority of pure-bloods who are proud of their ignorance and who have the greatest influence in the government - one needs look no further than Malfroy, Fudge, Crouch, etc. With the government's reaction to Voldemort's return - pretending that he doesn't exist despite the words of the greatest wizard of Britain (and the world?) - you can tell that it wouldn't do much better if the muggles attacked.

The Ministry would not take the drastic measures needed for victory such as finding the weaknesses of muggles and forcing everybody to become an Auror with the skill of one. Instead, under the control of purebloods who know nothing about muggles, it would pretend that nothing was wrong, pretend that victory was coming, use stupid pureblood methods like going into battle when guerrilla warfare would work best, and only realize its mistake too late. Muggle governments can afford to do this because of the population factor and their technological superiority. Wizarding governments can't.

5th Muggles have superior technology. This one's pretty obvious. Accepting the fact that magic has realistic limits, you find that with nukes are superior to shields.

6th Wizarding power is highly overrated. Not every wizard has the courage, the will, and the cunning to go and do the guerrilla warfare methods advocated by the pro-wizard league. In the end, wizards are normal people, and normal people aren't super-spys. They can't sneak around and kill thousands, risking death every day. Moreover, most would panic in battle, having never seen it; this means that once under arrest, they wouldn't have the experience or knowledge to effectively escape. It's like the reaction of the Jews to the Nazis: they mostly did what they were asked to do even though 6 million people resisting at once would've made genocide much harder. So the genocide of wizards would proceed the same way.

7th Guerrilla warfare wouldn't work. Since its impossible for wizards to win a direct battle, its impossible to defend their major institutions: Hogwarts, the Ministry, Diagon Alley. With all the centers of the wizarding world gone, they'd be forced to rely on guerrilla war. Guerrilla war can work, but it does this by sapping the will of the enemy. This is dependent on unpopular wars waged in foreign lands. Yet a war waged by in your homeland against you will never be unpopular. The threat is immediate, and you must win, and your will is as eternal as your enemy.

Also the wizarding world is much weaker without its center - this is true for everything. Without the center, it collapses into competing factions unable to communicate - one needs look no further than Iraq. Some may fight each other. A skillful muggle government will ally with some, destroy others, gain their secrets, and eventually stamp out the enemy.

8th Finally, canon itself admits that wizards couldn't win a war against muggles. Props to Taure for pointing this out. He showed that wizards purposely hid from muggles. But why don't wizards rule over all muggles as feudal lords in part of an elite, much like the nobility used to do? They could if they would - a world of power and ease beckons. Everyone in the world would enslave others if they got a weapon like magic. Yet wizards don't. The only answer is that the muggles are too powerful and numerous for this to happen.

Hagrid's explanation jives with this. He stated that wizards don't want muggles to ask them for favors. Yet if wizards were enslaving the muggles, they would be in no position to ask for favors. Instead, Hagrid assumes that the muggles can force wizards to use their magic to help, proving that wizards are indeed weaker than muggles.

The WOMBAT was:

You notice that if, as the pro-wizarding side states, muggles were less powerful than wizards, then the wizards could've simply stopped all this. And yet they were forced to hide with the secrecy clause. This proves that, even 300 years ago, wizards were indeed less powerful than muggles and would lose in a war.

There is no way to find a loophold or get past this simple fact, this canon. Even if you prove all my other points moot in this debate, the canon point is an automatic winner.

 

Your entire thesis fails.


Why you may ask? Well, muggles would have find the wizarding world first. Even if they knew it existed, how could actually find Diagon Alley, St Mungo's or the Ministry. 3 words for you. Anti-Muggle Wards. If they can't find or see something they can't destroy it.

Next, it fails because you CAN'T BLOODY WELL NUKE SOMETHING THATS INSIDE YOUR BLOODY CAPITAL CITY can you?

Next, is any modern, western country actually going to bomb a hospital? I was under the impression that that sort of activity was reviled by the general public over here. It wouldn't happen. St Mungo's would be safe.

Next, is any modern, western country actually going to bomb a school? Im not an expert on the Geneva convention, but doesn't it say something about killing children? Or at least, non combatants?

You mention muggles being able to send in camera's to spy on wizards. You might have failed to actually read the books, but electricity doesn't work around magic.

And about muggle-borns siding with the muggles. Hmmmm, did the Jews side with Hitler? No. Would muggle borns side with muggles? No. A muggle born is still a magic user, and would thus be reviled and hated by the muggles. We are currently undergoing a war on terrorism right? 98% of international terrorists are Muslim. 2% of Muslim's are international terrorists. Does that mean that the general public doesn't feel distrust and irrational hatred of Muslims in general? No. Same logic applies to muggle borns. They aren't going to side with the people who are systematically attempting to destroy or enslave anyone who can use magic.

Magic has a gene? Wow, I didn't know that. I thought magic was...you know, magic. Not a scientifically quantifiable energy mass.

And you think the international community would stand for experimentation upon human beings? Hitler's regime experimented upon gypsies and Jews, homosexuals and cripples, to see what made them different. Whats so different about experimenting on people who have supernatural powers?

 

A while ago I had started to write a one-shot about a post Muggle/Wizard war where the wizards were placed into Concentration Camps, but I stopped cause I felt something was missing. Here is the theory I used in the fic...

The Ministry of Magic seems to be run heavily by old pureblood families who know nothing about the muggle world. The last thing they would ever suspect was that the muggles could have been developing a countermeasure to magic for decades.

Look at it like this, you are the leader of a muggle nation, and you find out about magic. You find out about this potentially dangerous thing, you are going to want to know what you are facing. So you start a secret project thats goal is to unlock how magic works and how to combat it. I wouldn't put it past the muggle governments to abduct muggleborn witches and wizards who live in the muggle world and experiment on them.

I imagine they would find the gene that creates magic. They would then create some kind of poison that isolates the gene and stops the flow of magic.

In the one-shot the gene that created magic affected the Mitochondria, which produced ATP; the energy for the human body, with the magic gene the Mitochondria not only produced ATP, but also the energy known as magic. If magic is broken down into genetics, then I am positive that the muggles would find a way to negate magic.

I found this quote I think it best describes the muggles... "It is human nature to want to unlock the secrets to something that has secrets to be unlocked." Meaning, humans(muggles) have a desire to know everything, and that would include magic.

Edit:

I think it does. Magic looks to be hereditary. Magical parents produce magical offspring. Just like two parents with black hair have a high chance of having a child with black hair. And magic also appears in children with non magical parents, which could mean they were born with the gene that allows magic, or had an ancestor who could use magic and the gene appeared in them. I have a hard time imagining magic as this glowing ball of energy sitting inside your body.

 

Go to my 8th, canon argument. You lose.

 

The muggle world has to locate the wizarding world for any war to occur. You fail, goodbye.

 

To Belerdorhan- your 8th argument is moot. It's canon that in a war between Wizards and Muggles the latter would win- in Medieval times. Do you really think that a western government would allow witch burnings? None that I can think of would allow this. Muggle technology has advanced beyond recognition since then- how do you know that Wizards haven't as well? How do you know that they don't have spells, etc. that didn't exist then? Which brings me back to my point above. Wizards can go back in time. Muggles can't. Thus, they loose.


Edit: Mordecai is right. Muggle-repelling ward were developed as a result of witch hunts. I'm pretty sure that's canon, but can't be assed to look in GoF. Your argument fails.

 

J.K.Rowling has stated here :

You fail.

 

Why do people have this us vs them mentality about this? In this situation it wouldn't be us that is fighting the wizards, but the muggles from the book.

The only way that muggles would stand a chance in the war would be if they launched the first attack and had been preparing for it for a long time. Then they might be able to attack some of the lesser magical areas that are not in the center of their cities or unplottable. Then after that, they will lose most of their advantage. The muggleborn, which many of you seem to be assuming would join the muggles, would be appalled at their actions and would inform the wizards on what to expect from muggles. From there wizards would then create a variety of new spells to counteract advanced muggle technology. Thus, the muggle threat is pretty much ended, and the wizards now have free reign to do whatever the hell they please as revenge as a muggle attack would only give credence to people like Voldemort.

Otherwise, I don't see how muggles could figure out that crimes were committed magically, seeing as how the vast majority of them don't even know it exists. Should the wizards attack first, they still have the obliviator squads to obliviate any surviving witnesses. Even if a witness was able to remember what happened, everyone would just think their story of wizards and ghouls to be madness brought on by a traumatic experience. Its pretty much stated in the books that muggles go through large lengths to convince themselves that magic isn't real. I don't see that changing rapidly no matter what the circumstance.