It is my contention that muggles would win no matter the situation. They have guns, planes, ships, tanks, and a whole host of other war making technology. We have been making war with each other for thousands of years, and we have gotten damn good at killing a whole lot of people really really fast. In a fair fight where both groups had equal knowledge of the other's abilities then muggles would win from the outset. In a fight where wizards attacked muggles, the muggles would take heavy losses at the outset, but the numbers would bounce back and the muggles would be able to massacre the wizard minority.

 

...did you perhaps miss the part about the muggles being unable to find/see/hear/locate the wizarding world?

 

Why apportion it for landmass? if you apportion it for population, the number of wizards in the world is about 300,000.

Electricity doesn't work around massive concentration of magic such as those found in Hogwarts. The Dursleys' house has Harry's blood wards permanently in place and yet their electronics work just fine.

You think people like Putin or the Chinese government would care about that?

Who's the say that can't be worked around? There are other ways to see something othar than with your eyes. Aside from the obvious heat detection devices and satellite cameras, which aren't people, so they wouldn't be affected by charms, who's to say magic isn't detectable? True, there is no canon evidence for (or against) this, but it's not too far fetched to propose that magic would produce a detectable radiation or wave, for instance.

 

To my knowledge that is until they are made aware of it by a wizard, if this is incorrect I apologize. That fact was what I based having the caveat of equal knowledge of the other, or a surprise attack. I feel that either way the muggles would eventually beat the wizards based on sheer numbers and brutality.

 

What is with this belief that wizards aren't human and don't have the same human spirit, ingenuity, and brutality as muggles do? You say that if muggles found out about magic than they would do all these comic book like experiments and be able to 'manipulate the magical gene' and 'find a way to use technology to monitor magic' but if that was true why wouldn't wizards be able to do the same exact thing- and easier as they have magic.

Why is it impossible to believe that wizards don't have shields that can stop bullets when they can make fire tickle? Why is it that wizards couldn't make a spell to stop radiation if muggles can make a weapon to blast them with it? All the pro-muggle arguments are so full of utter fail that I am astonished.

Wow, so us muggles have big guns and we can blow things up with bombs and artillery... But wow wizards have spells that make it so we can't find what we're trying to shoot at in the first place and they have spells like a simple banisher that can banish bombs and missiles in the other direction.

And what about dragons and dementors and apparation and freaking portkeys. A bloody dragon flies into Tokyo 'AH GODZILLA!' and everybody dies. A pack of dementors go into London and suck out the soul of every muggle they can find. A group of one hundred aurors apparate into the center of a military base, throw a few burning and explosion charms and pop away in a second to the other side of the base to do the same thing. A wizard portkeys stolen muggle bombs into the white house. BOOM! These are things that we already know about in the book without any 'muggles find a way to stop magic from working some how' explanations that are just conjecture.

Magic would win, without fail, because while we have to work under the limits of the laws of science and nature magic doesn't. Once you see a canon example of this 'limit to magic' that I keep hearing about then please come and tell me.

 

Actually, the blood charm is on Harry, not the house.

Anyway, as far as I can see, the arguments on the Muggle side are purely fanon and speculation. The arguments on the wizarding side are based on extrapolations of canon.

I'll atempt to address a few of the most common arguments used.

1. When Muggles find out about magic they'll use the Ultimate Power of Science (TM) to study it and learn to protect against it.

While the people who use this argument's confidence in science is encouraging, science cannot solve anything. This argument is used as if it is a certainty that Muggles would figure magic out. Newsflash: even today, in modern times, there are many hundreds of things that we don't know and have been attempting to discover for centuries with science. It isn't an instant fix and you can't just invoke it saying, "Oh yeah, Muggles have the scientific method, they'll figure out magic no problem." There are many things that science still can't explain.

2. There are a lot more Muggles than wizards.

So?

This is a distincly Muggle train of thought.

In a wizarding conflict, numbers mean nothing. A single competant wizard of the likes of Voldemort or Dumbledore or even Snape could wreck havock on an entire nation of Muggles. It doesn't manner if Diagon Alley is destroyed, or if the Muggles ambush and kill the occasional wizard: so long as there is one wizard left, they still have the power to win. In fact, it could be said that their lack of numbers is in the wizards' favour, as it makes them that much harder to find.

3. Due to pureblood discrimination against Muggleborns, they will side with the Muggles and provide intelligence for them.

A very fanon idea. The fact of the matter is, in canon, there is no discrimination against Muggleborns. You get the occasional pureblood supremacist like Malfoy, but this is one wizard among thousands. There are very few purebloods left, if any at all, and they are in no position to ensure discrimination against Muggleborns. Notice how most people are shocked by the word Mudblood, how Muggle Hunting was banned, etc etc. The wizarding world as a whole is very tolerant of Muggleborns, and certainly discrimination will not impair any Muggleborn's rights or day to day life.

 

Magic can't raise the dead, there's your example.

It is tied to the house, and either way, electrical appliances don't go berserk when Harry gets near them.

The problem is, even if each wizard kills 100 muggles, it only takes one muggle managing to hit them--muggles win by attrition. Say Snape apparates into Harlem and starts throwing curses. He may kill a few dozen niggas, but eventually someone will get through and pop a cap in his ass.

 

Thats a magical limit on magic though.

There are certainly limits within magic with what it can do.

However, it has complete domination over the "Muggle" forces, models and laws such as gravity, electromagnetism, dimensions, nuclear forces, cause and effect, and even the very idea of the atom.

 

When I say find limits I don't mean extravagant ones like 'make a whole new univers' or 'bring back the dead.' Of course anything is possible and perhaps if a thousand wizards banded together than one of these could be done. What I mean is that I keep hearing the argument that wizards somehow won't be able to stop the heat and radiation from a nuke because magic is to limited for that. Says who? Magic really seems to have no limits besides how strong the person using the magic is.

 

Mordac: Peter Pettigrew, a fairly weak wizard according to canon, managed to kill a dozen muggles with one spell, in the process making a large enough crater that it could be past off as a gas explosion. What do you think a wizard like Dumbledore, Voldemort, hell any even average wizard could do? A hell of a lot of damage with one or two spells, then they apparate away, have a cuppa, apparate to the other side of town, kill another 30 odd folk, apparate away, have a cuppa, add an undetectable potion to the water system, get on a broom and fly along busy streets shooting incendio's at random. Death. Terror. Long term danger from the water supply. One wizard could cripple an entire city.

You don't need to worry about tripping sensors when sneaking into a restricted area, because you just apparate to your destination, cast your spells and disappear again.

If you disillusion yourself before you apparate into a street at the centre of London, into a session of Parliament/Congress/Senate/Big High Poobahs etc then you can cast your spells before leaving. Unseen destruction.

Even without causing violence, they could cripple muggle government. Wait until a major politician makes a public address and hit him with a babbling charm. Feed him veritaserum before he goes to the podium and shout revealing questions at him. Make his clothes disappear.

They could cripple infrastructure without ever being seen. Simply vanish portions of roadway.

They could destroy economies and starve nations by vanishing crops, poisoning land and livestock. They could vanish the contents of the super frieghters that carry oil, they could simply vanish oil whilst its in the ground. A single incedio at a purification plant. If they have spells to neutralise radiation, which the might have, they could blow up nuclear power stations.

Muggles couldn't win. A wizard can easily hide amongst the muggles with appropriate knowledge for any length of time. A muggle couldn't do the same for the wizarding world, partly because they couldn't find the wizarding world to start with.

 

You, my friend, are very naive.

The public are sheep and thus can be manipulated. Would any modern western government bomb a school? No. But would they bomb a terrorist training camp? Yes. Same goes for the hospital and Diagon Alley. ( and you really don't need to use nukes to ensure that something is totally and utterly destroyed, by the way).

And if you honestly don't believe that any government facing a foe wielding a weapon they don't understand will go to any lengths to try and understand said weapon, then you need to get out of the fucking basement and look at the world you live in.

And, for your information you don't need to see/hear/feel a thing to destroy it, all you need are its coordinates (and considering it would be enough to capture a single wizard to get them, your point is moot).

And finally, the Geneva Convention!? Who the fuck do you think will give a damn about that when facing total annihilation/enslavement? EDIT: Other than you, I suppose, but you're a pussy, so you don't count.

 

Quoted for truth.

Ever heard of unplottable, jackass? That means it aint going on a map.

 

In canon it is mentioned that when normal people look at Hogwars, they see a castle in ruins. Thus it is on the map and consequently you can bomb the shit of of it and the surrounding area.

So, in conclusion, you fail.

EDIT: And how the fuck did we end up with a member entitled "Half-Blood-Prince"?

 

Quoted to emphasise the amazing leap of logic.

 

When compared with HBP's post, it is amazing

 

For one, yes they can see a ruin but they can't plot it on a map. It is confusing to the unintelligent mind but the people who see it are only people that stumble through it 'on accident' and if they are muggles they get this extremely odd and undeniable urge to go in the other direction. Unless a muggleborn who already knows where Hogwarts is drives a truck down there and tries to shoot a bomb it's just not gonna happen. And that most likely work anyways because a huge deal of magic like Hogwarts would fry the trajectory systems in seconds and the bomb would fly right over.

And my name is Half-Blood Prince because I like the idea of the character. I've always rooted for Snape as a bad guy becuase then all the fan girls would be wrong. So when the book made him into a death eater I loved it. That's why I'm named half-blood prince, pal.

 

Oh, is that it? I just tough you fantasied about Alan Rickman while touching yourself at night.

And regarding your explanation, two words: carpet bombing.

 

...

Its stated in canon that the Unplottable charm prevents a location from appearing on a map. The anti muggle wards that show a ruined castle are for when a random muggle out hiking stumbles across the school.


And how would a muggle government hold a wizard? To stop them from apparating away you need to keep them permanently sedated. To interogate them you need to have them conscious. Admittedly they may be woozy and that would make apparation a risk. But really...what would you prefer a chance of splinching or a guarentee of torture?

And really Krull, you may like to think you're tough and cool, but is there any need to make a piss poor attempt to make this arguement personal, just because I'm making logical statements that are backed up by our worlds history in war.

How do you describe a school full of nearly a thousand children as a terrorist training camp? How would they get away with bombing an area in central London, especially when its a hospital. Now, I don't know what country you come from, but I'm going to assume the US since most members are from there. Would the US government blow up a building in central Washington? Would the US government blow up a hospital?

 

Our world's history of war? When did we ever face a supernatural army bent on annihilating/enslaving us?

...I'm surprised you even have to ask. (And for your information,no, I am not from the US)

 

I have no idea what carpet bombing is and I am probably making a pointless argument as the definition of carpet bombing as I am imagining it can't be what you're talking about. If carpet bombing has anything to do with bombing around an area because you know the target is_around_there fails for two reasons.

1. What is the point of unplottable if you can just write on a map 'Hogwarts is next to here but we aren't exactly sure where'? There would be no point because all another wizard would have to do is apparate to that location and search around for a bit. And all a muggle would have to do is 'carpet bomb' is that is the correct definition.

2. Do you seriously think that a Government would just bomb the hell out of themselves because they know a target is 'somewhere around this general fifteen kilometer area'? Bombs won't work. They just won't. Get a new fucking argument buddy.