Well, once again taking the Transfiguration example, what is there left to do?

You can transfigure:

Object into another object.
Animal into another animal.
Object into an animal.
Animal into an object.
Human transfiguration.
You can vanish.
You can conjure.
You can animate and deanimate.

What possibly is there left?

But yes, its true that Dumbledore is superior. This is not because he can do something that others cannot: he is better because he can do it faster, on a larger scale, non-verbally, and more creatively. These are not things that can be learnt, they simply come with practice and natural talent.

 

Two quick bits on both Harry and the marauders.

Hermione is considered tops in her class. Harry would obliterate her in a duel. Thus Harry = Tops in his class in terms of skill.

Remus said Harry is as good as James in the third book, thus Harry is indeed considered powerful. Patronus: can be said that putting your emotion into that powerful a spell is magical power. Hundreds of dementors is hundreds of dementors, no matter how much you love. Period. G2G, so this isnt a satisfactory response but that's basically it.

 

Harry did better than her on DADA OWl, so this is to be expected. But dueling isn't everything.

This is true - the Patronus certainly is an impressive feat. My point though was that, even though it is an impressive feat, due to the manner in which Harry got good at it - love - this impressiveness cannot be transfered over to his other spellwork.

 

From what I remember Percy Weasley got a bunch of NEWTS so does that mean that he has a mastery in loads of subjects? I really can't see that at all. And Hermione is most likely going to get E's or O's in all her NEWTS but does that mean she is some sort of master at them? I think OWLs just show that you have enough knowledge to go out into the real world. Fifteen years old to me is just old enough to go out and get a job and even live mostly on your own. Then NEWTs come around and they are like passing Highschool and then getting an Associates Degree. People will hire you but not like if they see someone who goes on to get an even higher education which I think- like here in the US- is getting a mastery. I think that NEWTs mean that you have the amount of skills that one would come to expect from someone who is a civilized member of society while getting a mastery means that you can sort of own everybody else when talking about that subject.

 

Well Taure, you are correct I went through the lexicon and everything you stated was said to be taught with the exception of animation though we haven't seen the 7th year material yet. I guess my wish for magic being something requiring some thought and competency is not going to be filled. Though I still believe the idea of mastery at 17 is absolutely retarded.

 

HBP: The idea of an actual qualification of a Mastery is complely fanon.

When I use the term, I am refering to the ability of a person to do any bit of magic within that branch.

Yes. Percy is a very capable wizard.

You can't argue with the proof. I just showed how Transfiguration NEWT covers every single part of Transfiguration. Thus, a person with a transfiguration NEWT (passed at a high level) can do any bit of transfiguration magic they like (bar animagus). Thus, they are a master of transfiguration.

Zield: I agree, it is a bit ridiculous, but it's canon :S This is why we have fanfiction.

 

I find the views of many of the people here to be interestingly limited. Admittedly, the characters - all of them - are flawed, some seriously so.

Hermione believes wholeheartedly in the power of the written word, and has tremendous respect for the law and the relevant authorities. She was raised by two doctors - a profession that lends itself both to respect for the law and for the written word. If she comes to the realization that not all answers are found in books - and, in my opinion, she has, as demonstrated by her pressing Harry to teach Defense in fifth year - and that not all those placed in positions of authority and respect are deserving of said authority and respect, she will be in a much better position to help Harry.

Ron has self esteem problems. Perfectly normal for a child or young man who has been overshadowed his whole life by his brothers - Bill, a cursebreaker - hardly a safe position or one that is easy to assume - Charlie - dragontamer, Best Seeker of his years at Hogwarts. Percy: Headboy, scholastic overachiever. Fred and George: Brilliant, mischievous minds, caring more about spreading humor than pointless academic achievement in a corrupt society. Harry: Rich, Famous, Boy-who-lived.
Ron lives in the shadows of the heroes of his generation, and he doesn't feel that he can compete, so he doesn't try - not that he treats it with disdain, just that he feels that he will never be as good at it as any of his other friends would be, so he doesn't bother. His strategic abilities, as evinced by his chess skill and Captaining the quidditch team, will be valuable assets later on in life, assuming he grows a [censored] spine.

Harry, himself, has a tremendous problem with authority, trust, and abandonment - stemming, somewhat obviously be years of emotional and verbal abuse, as well as outright neglect and endangerment, and being betrayed - apparently at the very least - by every single person who has authority over his life. I have worked with people who grew up in homes and situations similar to what Harry has gone through, and I tell you without a doubt in my mind that Harry is an emotional ruin - it's a fucking miracle he's managed to succeed as well as he has, and, for the most part, that's directly due to the emotional support he's received from Hermione and Ron.

As to his canon power and skill, we know that he is one of, if not the most talented and knowledgeable persons in the field of Defense against the Dark arts amongst the student body of Hogwarts. Every single person who was in DADA received at least an EE on their OWLS, and Harry himself received an O. The curricula itself may be lacking, but on ministry issue standardized testing which has likely been around for decades, given noted MoM competence levels, he excels, as do his students - despite receiving possibly the most substandard education possible due to the curse on the DADA position. Dumbledore is, for whatever his faults, a very smart, powerful, skilled, and connected wizard. And yet, the best professor he could find for Harry's second year was a man who he, and his staff, knew was incompetent - why? Because he had no other choices. If he failed to retain his own instructor, the Ministry would have assigned Umbridge, or another of her ilk, that much sooner.


Harry, rightly or wrongly, is focused on his survival. That means that you go with what works - spells of proven power in books. The one time he didn't, he damn near killed another student - with a single spell - Sectumsempra - that causes a gash to open, potentially permanently, resulting in a fairly nasty scar. Harry overpowers this spell to the point where he damn near kills Draco with a multitude of slashes.


The Patronus and the Priori incantatum effect are not solely about emotion or strength of will. Saying that the power of the Patronus is backed solely by the power of the positive emotions of a emotionally abused teen tells me that this 'extraordinarily difficult post-NEWT charm' is moronic, especially when you consider -how many- dementors Harry drove away. There's a certain power requirement there, otherwise it wouldn't be such a difficult charm.

James, Remus, Sirius, and Snape are all powerful, talented wizards. Comparing them directly to Harry and Hermione is unfair, given the environment in which they all grew up. Harry doesn't really know what is or isn't possible with magic, and is under such close scrutiny by Dumbledore and the Ministry that he'd never be able to pull off some of the crap that the Marauders did such as the animagus transformation. Hermione is running through Arithmancy and ancient runes - both classes said to teach the basics of spell construction - in other words, hardcore theory classes. She wants to get a good grasp on the theory and principles of magic before she starts working on her own spells - again, understandable, given theprevailing attitudes amongst doctors and in the muggle world. Ron, as I said earlier, just needs to grow a spine.

 

Wrong. Very, very, very wrong. That is like saying that what we learn in high school is every bit of what there is to learn. Hogwarts is under a ministry created syllabus that is definitely not going to teach them 'every bit of transfiguration there is to know.' That's an extremely stupid blanket statement. Dumbledore showed that Marshbanks (I don't have any books on me) woman things 'she had never even seen before' as a NEWT examiner but does that mean that he had stopped learning anymore charms and transfiguration and just practiced what he already knew?


And your 'All you can teach in Transfiguration' list has so much more stuff going on than those general terms. Animation for one. Are you saying that Hogwarts teaches their students every animation spell possible? If I remember correctly from GF, Krum wasn't able to completely transform himself into a shark yet he was a seventh year and a bloody school champion. And I believe that while Cedric was able to transfigure a large rock into a dog and make it bark and maybe run around a bit (I'm not sure he was even able to do the last one) he had most likely needed to practice day in and day out to be able to do that. I think there has to be something out there higher than just NEWTs to seperate the Dumbledores and McGonagalls from the Krums and the Cedrics.

EDIT: You know for some reason, FallenDruid guy, I really don't like you and I am impatiently waiting for the next person to post so I can tell you why you fail.

 

I'm saying there's only one.

 

To everyon who said that it was unfair and unrealistic to compare the older generation with the younger YOU ARE RIGHT.

James, Sirius, and Snape are brillant. They are powerful, skilled and have a good bit of natural talent.


Taure your ideas say that learning after Hogwarts is basically underheard of. Tom Riddle learned outside of Hogwarts. Dumbledore learned outside of Hogwarts. Snape learned outside of Hogwarts. Im sure Flitwick and the other teachers must have learned something outside of Hogwarts. Why wouldnt Sirius and James have IF.. IF they had not been killed or thrown in Azkaban?

Harry is obviously talented. But he is simply restricted too much to be able to expand. His will is obviously strong as shit(example GoF he has to force the wand too stay conected and force the beam into Toms wand). Also Taure if your saying that emotion is how Harry managed the Patronus and love is the power the darklord knows not then Harry must be strong because emotion would help a great deal.

 

That would be the post grad apprenticeship phase, or concentrated teaching from a true master of the art, one not working from a ministry created and controlled syllabus to an artificial level of quality. (IE, standardized testing.)

Victorian era education standards was that the elite - rich merchants, noblemen, government officials - and their families were educated in the best manner possible.

Lower class families had apprenticeships to established craftsmen.

The population of Hogwarts does not lend itself to the idea that there is any true population base of wizards in Britain, Scotland, and Ireland. My rough numbers indicate a total of 280 students - 5 boys, 5 girls per house per year, on average.

I'd say that most of those students not going directly into the ministry for a job would take a 'job' somewhere that would effectively be an apprentice style position, where they would learn much magic that is related specifically to that job.

In my opinion, most of the Death eaters are sycophantic inbred upperclass twits who rely on terror instead of power or skill to accomplish their mission.

 

Canon proof = 0

The closest you get is the line that says that after Hogwarts Tom Riddle "travelled far and wide, consorting with the worst kinds of wizard..."

Sounds more like ally-gathering to me.

 

I particularly remember that half the plot of the sixth book was what Voldemort did during his life and if the events between when Tom Riddle finished school and later came back a monster with a huge repertoire of dark magic spells isn't called learning...

 

And I particularly remember that he was a shop assistant.

As for the "huge repertoire of dark margic spells"...canon proof needed. There probably aren't more than 50 Dark Arts spells in existence anyway.

 

I would think that in 1000s of years there would be more than 50 spells in the dark arts. Taure have you hit your head on something?

Okay Dumbledore learned EVERYTHING I mean absolutely everything he knows in his 150 years in 7 years of Hogwarts. Snape learned to be a master of the mindarts IN Hogwarts. Tom Riddle recruited outside Hogwarts and underwent how many rituals IN Hogwarts. Mad Eye Moody became the top auror IN Hogwarts. Lucius Malfoy and the rest of the Death Eaters learned the dark arts IN Hogwarts. Shit wonder if the founders learned in Hogwarts too.

Damn Hogwarts must be one hell of a school.

I gotta agree with Taure. They learned everything in Hogwarts. (sarcasm hint hint)

 

He needed a job. But what about the other thirty or so years he was gone?

And do you need specific canon proof to believe anything? It's called extrapolation. And what about the purple spell that Dolohov cast that nearly killed Herman or the orange spell that Voldemort shot that made the hairs on the back of Harry's neck standing on end?

 

Im telling you HBP he learned in Hogwarts.

 

Oh, I'm with you there, man. Ollivander learned his wand making craft... in hogwarts! And Malkin learned how to sow! And Bella... she learned the art and craft of torturing people to insanity, you guessed it.... in Hogwarts!

 

I didnt think about them. Suprised Hermoine didnt take those classes. I know I would want to take Pranking 101 you know Fred, George, James, Sirius, and Remus must have taken that one. Got a better one Tom learned Blood of the Enemy, bone of the father, and the last part that i cant remember the words at the moment in Hogwarts

 

Yup, pretty much.

They learn the Dark Arts in DADA class.

I see no canon evidence to the contrary. He learnt it all in Hogwarts, and has been doing the same stuff since, he's just got better at it.

Tom Riddle only ever underwent 6 rituals, all of them the same. 2 of them occured during his Hogwarts years.

Auror training is one of the few exceptions to the rule, as in healer training. However, even here, its most likely that a lot of the stuff covered is covered also at Hogwarts: simply new applications are taught of the same spells.

Again, yes they did. Harry has after all.

Got to go to bed, edit later.