Dude, imagine a war scenario. People with supernatural powers are randomly popping in and causing havoc and mayhem. Given sufficient time and public pressure what don't you think they'll do?

And keep in mind that carpet bombing is by definition the bombing of a very large area uniformly. They would just need the general description of the surrounding area to be able to do it.

 

Unplottable, I would understand that as unable to appear on a map.

Sure if a muggle is onsight then they would see ruins but what is to say that the government would ever find Hogwarts on a map?

Example: A gov't agent has been set the task of finding Hogwarts' coordinates.

After failing to capture a wizard, or capturing and receiving no information because a wizard wouldn't be stupid enough to actually give them the coordinates that would anhilate their children. (Why would a wizard be captured anyways? Wouldn't accidental magic kick in and, assuming Harry did it in cannon, apparate away?)

After the wizard has died and all other sources of information have dried out, let us assume the agent is able to follow the train tracks leading to Hogwarts, then he would simply see a castle in ruins and tell the gov't so.

Of course someone would make the connection and know where Hogwarts was at.
Unplottable they would be unable to find it on a map, or set its location on one.

Doesn't Hogwarts have muggle repelling ward though? (so the agent would never find his way onto the grounds)

Speaking of wards what is to say wizards wouldn't be able to find a way to include the imperturbable spell into a ward.

"GOV- Nuke!

HOG- Wards!

And they never saw it again..."

I keep seeing people say how muggles would 'find a way' well what is to say wizards could not either?

I mean cannon!Hermione says that most wizards don't have an ounce of logic, never says crap about imagination.

So Imagination and Magic would be a wonderful thing to behold, and a time of war would definitely spark a few things in many wizards' heads.

I mean Nuclear weapons and Space technology didn't really advance until a war pushed the muggles to explore them further.

Sure there was interest and possibly some government funding but it wasn't a highlight on their agenda until it became a necessity.

There are probably major points I am missing that would totally destroy the situation I put forth but this was the only thing I could come up with right now.

 

I still think that my canon argument trumps all reasoning.

The only thing stated against it is that the wizarding world has advanced faster than the muggle world. One way we can measure this is by the life expectancy of wizards v. muggles over the past four centuries. Muggle life expectancy has roughly doubled. It's Lorelei's job to prove that wizarding life expectancy has also doubled using JKR's stats on random wizards and how long they live, as this is his argument. I doubt it has.

I'm going to revise my wizarding population thing to what Mordac suggested. Britain has .0091226515% of the world's population. So use this proportion with the wizarding population, and you get 328,851.7593 wizards in the world. Therefore each wizard would have to kill 20,069.83333 muggles in order to win.

Mordecai states that the muggle world can't find the wizarding world. Someone has already used the argument of muggle technology defeating wards. I'll use the arguments of muggle-borns giving information, squibs giving information, science adapting, and canon stating that in fact, if a war would occur, the muggles would be able to do this. You can't go against canon.

There's also an argument going around that muggles are too civilized to hurt wizards like that. I'd disagree, as it takes only a few atrocities by the wizarding side for all pretenses of decency to go out the window. And the wizarding world needs to commit atrocities for it to win; this is the only way that the pro-wizarding side sees a wizarding victory. In fact, Mordecai blows his own argument up in his next paragraph. I'll quote it:

Even if we assume that the argument applies, then there would be no wizarding-muggle war at all or the war would end quickly. So in order for a comparison of powers on both sides to occur at all, we have to throw the argument out. Besides, canon states that even then, the muggle world will win.

Mordecai states that electricity doesn't work around magic. That's fine; my camera argument still works after the main centers of the magical world are destroyed. See above for why that'd happen.

A lot of people state that muggle-borns are actually going to be on the wizarding side. Let me make two things very clear. First, the muggle world only needs just one muggle-born per country. You just need one muggle-born to tell every single aspect of what wizarding society is like to the muggles. You just need one muggle-born to open the gate to Diagon Alley. You only need one person to decide his family is more important than a world that hates him.

Second of all, even if that one person doesn't exist, the muggle world still may have squibs. Many of them are outcasts of the wizarding world; they're even more disliked than muggles. Squibs know even more than muggle-borns about the weaknesses of wizarding society. While they may not be able to be experimented on or prevent magical assaults or combine magic with muggle items, they are still a valuable resource.

Khortez thinks muggle-borns will be appalled at muggle brutality. I'd state the opposite; muggle-borns will be appalled at wizarding brutality. It's the only thing that's going to win the war, as the pro-wizarding side points out. Taure states that the wizarding world doesn't actually hate muggle-borns. I think that here we have a fundamental disagreement. The HP-lexicon has 33 Death Eater, around 1 percent of the wizarding population. Of course, JKR has given only a tiny proportion of the total number of Death Eaters. And a far larger share of the population - the pure-bloods, as Sirius Black tells it - has sympathies with Voldemort. You get a significant minority of the population supporting someone who kills muggle-borns. Taure also states that pure-bloods have little influence in the government. I give you the Bones, (head of Magical Law Enforcement), Dumbledore (head of Hogwarts and a lot of other positions besides), Crouch (head of Magical Law Enforcement and International Relations), Malfoy (who everybody thinks is influential). I have yet to see a muggle-born holding a position as the head of a magical department in the Ministry. But if you don't believe me, listen to what Rowling says:

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizworld/blood-status-names.html#pure-blood

Obviously, at least one muggle-born will be so alienated from the wizarding world and so attracted to their muggle family that they will desert.

The Half-Blood Prince states that wizards can, in fact, adapt to muggle technology like muggles can adapt to wizarding magic. This is false because to adapt to muggle technology, you need a culture, a rich history, of inventing things and advancing. The wizarding world does not have this. It doesn't have the scientific method that has made humans advance so much. In fact, the wizarding world is much like Europe in the stagnant Dark Ages or the Muslim world today: unable to advance without a culture of advancement.

A favorite tactic of the pro-wizarding side is to say that wizards can do anything. They can blow up the White House, poison millions, etc. First, canon states this is false. Second, wizarding ignorance prevents them from knowing the muggle weak points. Wizards won't do what the pro-wizarding side theorizes because they don't know what the White House is, how the water system works, etc. Third, wizarding arrogance will prevent them from learning muggle weak points. Fourth, guerrilla warfare doesn't work anyways. The muggle governments can turn wizard factions against themselves after the main wizarding centers are destroyed. Fifth, muggle-borns will prevent any wizard attacks from happening.

Finally, and most importantly, wizards are highly overrated. Taure himself states:

How can a wizard who doesn't know Protego do all this? Taure states that people like Snape can do great damage. But how many Snapes are in the wizarding world? And how many Bertha Jorkins are in the wizarding world? Mordecai states that what if wizards did this, what if wizards did that. Let's pretend Mordecai is the average wizard. Does he have the guts to go out and bomb Parliament right now? Can he go and try to hack the water supply right now? Or would he rather just stay home and hide?

I'll pose this question to the reader here staring at the computer. Would you actually go and try to become James Bond after you've been attacked? Or would you rather stay at home and hide or flee? That's what you're asking the average wizard to do. The average human being just wants to stay at home in peace. He's not a guerrilla fighter. Same for wizards. Very few are intense enough and dedicated enough to do that.

Let's go to his example of killing 30 muggles with Incendio. Apart from the fact that it takes a lot of burning to kill a human, congratulations! He's just reached .15% of his goal! Only 20,040 muggles left to kill!

 

Too true....

 

Did I say kill 30 muggles with incedio curses? Could you perhaps try reading other posts? It tends to help on occasion.

I said that Pettigrew, a weak wizard, killed 12 muggles with one curse, how many could a more powerful wizard kill? I used incendio as an example of how a wizard could cause terror.

This clap trap about canon saying the muggle world would win..STFU. Your making things up out yer arse. The wizarding world could not control the muggle world. Big fucking difference. The wizarding world chooses to hide, they couldn't control muggles, they would have to fight and seriously deplete muggle numbers to do so.

I just have to restate the arguement that totally throws anything you say out the water. Could you perhaps try to actually read and understand it this time.

How are the muggles going to kill/destroy something they can't see, can't hear, can't find, can't put on a map, that can vanish their weapons, that can cause massive havoc without even uttering a word.

And as for your little thing about the average person wanting to stay at home and hide. Think back to during all the wars of our world. During the Peninsular Wars, the Spanish and Portugeuse peasants were more feared by the French than the British army (most skilled in the world at that point) was. The French had to dispatch an entire regiment of cavalry to escort a single messenger. That is what the average peasant, the common citizen can do.

During both World Wars, the invaded countries formed resistance movements that were general rather effective. During WWII the British citizenry were trained in a variety of manners, sabotage, guerilla tactics and so forth in the event of the Germans winning. They did so and did so gladly.

In the middle east everyone from children up to octarians are a risk to our forces of being suicide bombers. Any citizen can strap a piece of explosive to their chest and kill some people, and many do.

How much damage do you think a wizard who bothered to do a bit of practice before they went out, and was willing to die, would do? A hell of a lot is the answer.

Never underestimate or demeen how much the average citizen can do when their ire is raised and their livelihood is at stake.

Think about all the bog standard easy spells that could cause so much havoc in the muggle world. Levitation, pick up a car or truck and then drop it from 50 feet up. Send random tickling charms at drivers, you'll cause an accident. Stand on a building top and summon pedestrians. Banish rocks down off said building top. As a first year Hermione can conjure fire, which is something of a primordial fear for the majority of people.

Mrs Weasley, whom I think we all agree is a rather average witch with no particularly special skills or power, can apparate. I reckon that means that most witches and wizards can apparate. All you have to do is carry an enchanted item that causes some sort of havoc (which can be inchanted by others) and apparate it carrying, put it down and apparate out.

Anyone can, in theory, ride a broom. How much havoc can you cause from broom back, a hell of a lot is the answer.

Might a Mod or Admin consider locking this thread, the arguements are going in circles and nowhere fast, added to the fact it was all settled until an idiotic n00b bumped the bloody thing.

 

Your argument can be used against you, normal people can be armed/trained as well.

And I do agree, this thread need to be locked.

P.S. You say wizards with brooms, I say muggles armed with heat seeking guided missiles.

 

Your heat seaking guided missiles fail because of vanishing and banishing charms as well as apparation and portkeys.

 

But how fast can an average wizard do a banashing/vanishing charm or apparate under pressure?

EDIT: And how good is their aim for that matter?

 

Okay I just lost my whole argument when my computer booted but let's do this again.

One. This whole 20,000 people that each wizard needs to kill argument is so full of fail it isn't even funny. When did war become a complete battle of attrition? This aint a war game buckos and sides aren't numbers. What would happen if wizards did something like Hiroshima and they sent a thousand dementors on London? Do you think the muggles might decide, 'Holy shit they raped a whole city! We need to stop fighting!'? Actually there is a good chance that they would.

Just because JKR needs an answer to all her press conference questions doesn't make it fact. If that was true than this whole argument would be pointless.

How the fuck did they find these major wizarding centers to blow them up. They can't be plotted on a map and it is in the middle of fucking London!!! They can't do any carpet bombing and one muggleborn isn't going to lead 5,000 soldiers on foot to the door to the leaky cauldron and say 'See that one? Yeah kill eveybody in there.' It just aint gonna happen.

And magic will always win against muggles without a doubt. Muggles are not going to suddenly find how to manipulate 'the magic gene' and they aren't going to be able to suddenly find magical places that have been warded specifically for that and they aren't going to have magic repelling shields.

What's that yu be smokin' man? I must be mistaken that you just said that magic doesn't have a rich culture with advancements. There is a bloody fanon idea all in its own and there is a whole damn thread for that and I will argue with you about it all day. And not a rich culture? How the fuck long have they been around for? They have a culture or they would have left. And the Scientific Method is fucking logic! Just because you haven't heard the name 'The Scientific Method' doesn't mean that wizards don't have it. And if they didn't advance then where the fuck did Wolfesbane come from?

When war comes along both the muggles and the wizards would have to learn about each other and how to defeat each other at the same time. Muggles have no real advantage there at all. What, when muggles are making up ways to destroy the wizarding world that they just found out about wizards wouldn't be trying to find ways to destroy the muggles as well?

For your second to last argument- Well your asking the same of muggles. What the hell's the difference?

And for your last argument- If one wizard killed 30 muggles a day and dementors rampaged across Great Britain then the country would give up faster than the french.

 

Why not? Every man has his price.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that that is just how hard muggles would have to try to even be able to hurt wizards but wizards would have no such problems. And did people completely disreggard the dragon, dementors, basilisks, and other magical creatures post? Muggles have artilery that could be used if it could even lock onto a target but magic has magical creatures and what do you think an attack by thirty giants on a small town would do to muggle moral?

 

They would strike back harder, the government will twist the story into depicting wizards as nothing short of beast that need to be put down and will gain the people's support to do almost everything.

And magical creatures can be killed quite easily by an organized attack. EDIT: Except dementors, I suppose.

Gun>spell

 

Oh come on, Krull, that is an incredibly weak argument to a very good point. Yes, maybe one or two screw up will happen and a missle will get through, but can you honestly say that even the average witch or wizard isn't good at pointing and shooting their spells? They do it every damn day!

And that makes a difference how? 'Oh, yes, let's train and form a militia to fight people we can't see, hear, or sense in any way.' His point was that an average witch or wizard -remembering Pettigrew took out twelve muggles with seeming ease- could do much more damage then you give them credit for. Muggles have guns, but have they been using them since they were eleven? Wizard's wands are their lively-hoods, something that is part of nearly anything and everything they do.

What the hell do you think they are going to do if their lives are going to be taken from them? Most people would get up and do what needs to be done to protect the futures of themselves and their families. On both sides of the war. The difference is, while both sides have the ability to kill many at a time, which side has the power to block said ability? Wizards with banishers and vanishers *cough cough*

Finally, I wonder how you, as a muggle, as going to fight against a dementor? It's not like they'd desert the wizards for the muggle side. They have hundreds of millions of souls to feed off of! Muggles aren't just going to -WAM- pull out some super photon ray that emits some anti-dementor beam. Holy horsefeathers, Batman, its. just. not. going. to. happen! Dementors and other magical creatures, who of course you are going to say are repressed and want more freedoms so they'll side with the muggles (which is utter bull shit), seem to make up quite a bit of that number difference you all seem so fond of. They don't want their lives changed and I have no doubt they'd kick some muggle arse too.

*cough cough* can't find them or see them and, by the time they are spotted, they don't stand a chance against thousands of dementors or a few dragons *cough cough*

Your argument...it is so miserably fail that all I can do is laugh. /me laughs at you until tears roll down his eyes. WHAT? A gun is greater then a spell. How about expelliarmus? Kind of hard to shoot it when it's ripped from your hands. I'm not going to go into details about physical barrier shields as it's so obvious they are possible yet they are still essentialy fanon. Just know that it is quite obvious that a gun is NOT greater then a spell.

 

*Krull shrugs.

Kolskit, I've seen plenty of people who couldn't aim and fire a gun straight under stressful conditions. So it is only normal for me to assume that you would have some problems aiming and saying an incantation/doing the correct arm movements while on a broom and having a missile race towards you.

 

Yes, but are these people trained from the time they were eleven to aim a gun and fire it correctly. I think not! Yes, some will miss, but the majority of people -who have grown up aiming with their wands and riding on a broom- might just be able to pull it off. I'm sorry, Krull, but your whole thesis really just fails. Let's end this now and let the admins lock it up.

Anyways, it's not like they're going to have automatic missle launchers to attack muggles on brooms with. If it's air to air combat, I have no doubt the muggles would win, but why would they ever get the chance if wizards had any common sense? Keep to the ground, bitches!

Oh, yes, please don't start shit with my twin anymore (Half-Blood Prince). I saw you trying to make it somehow personal and it was pointless.

 

You know, totally off topic, I think you should each post pics to prove that you are actually twins...

 

I'm the one trying to get my head up between my Aunt and cousin while my bro is the one on the right with the braces. Aunt's birthday party, fyi.

(my cousin Lexie looks retarded right there, the one with her tongue out? Lulz. I hadn't noticed till now.)

 

Holy shit, twin, why the fuck was that the picture you decided to put up? I look like I got fucking grillz on. You see that shinin' golden tooth...

 

It is interesting to note that the pro-wizarding side has utterly ignored my muggleborns clause. I dare you guys to seriously say that not one muggle-born or squib will desert the wizards. If you don't, well then you've just given the muggles a way to destroy the wizarding centers. Use a bomb or undo the wards outside the place while the army kills anybody attacking the muggleborn. After that, it's just some wizarding guerrilla warfare that will fail (I already said why) before the whole campaign's wrapped up.

People have been talking about magical creatures. Warlocke has a post destroying that argument, which is why I didn't bother to answer an already dead argument.

 

Oh, lordy, another guy who doesn't look at the easy other side to his arguments. Think, man, think! Muggle-Borns? Yes, you will have deserters, but those oh-so-few aren't exactly going to make the biggest difference in the world. You seem to believe that because one deserts he's going to be able to bring down powerful wards and cause the same havoc wizards could cause muggles back onto the wizards. Not everyone is as powerful as Harry Potter! Yes, they can cast some strong spells and kill a few, but they aren't dealng with non-magic users anymore. Those hundred or so deserters will be slaughtered!

Good point on the magical creatures though, besides the dementors. Do you not remember the 5th book? Those two dementors didn't prowl around killing ther muggles, they just went directly after Harry. If wizards have souls for them to feed on -think the billions of muggles in the world- they are going to listen until they don't have anything else to feed on. For me, it's a canon fact that has no conjecture.

Any argument about wizards losing against muggle tactics is full of fail, plain and simple. Wizards are superior in power and skill in hundreds of different ways. No matter what you say, a killing curse and even an expelliarmus will always beat the gun unless it's an ambush.

Talking about muggles having technology to destroy large areas of land while wizards do not. Well, their are two arguments. First, the whole 'we also are in this country and nuclear fall-out would kind of ruin the point of killing them off'. Even if they decided to, ten wizards of auror calibre apperating out to the site and vanishing or banishing the warhead isn't amazing far-fetched.

Second, do you really think that with magic they could find a way so much easier? Yes, those deserters could destroy some of the attempts, but I think a magic bomb isn't out of the question if researchers put their minds to it. It is all conjecture, but the hundred or so deserters who would quickly be tracked down and killed before they could do any real damage. Remember, their are wards to prevent muggles from finding you, but seemingly not many canon wards for hiding from wizards unless you are willing to go the Fedelius route.