You are not getting my point. I do not mean that there are scales to being a Metamorphmagi. I know that you are either born one or you are not, and it is because of this that I raised the example. It is unequal that some people are born a Metamorphmagus, which would given them a huge advantage in certain areas such as disguise etc. So, why should magic be equal?

I'm not exactly trying to quantify magic. I simply mean some are born with more magic than others. I see magic as sort of a muscle. The musculature in some will naturally be greater than others. But it is directly affected by the factors comprising "skill", or the equivalent of exercise. The greater your "skill", the more powerful your magic. But like the way a skinny person would have to workout much more to develop, say, biceps as compared to one who is naturally more well-built, a wizard who is naturally less powerful will require more "skill" to be as powerful (ie. be able to cast spells with the same efficiency/power). He will have to be smarter/more diligent/more disciplined etc.

 

This argument has pretty much run its course, but there's one point left I'd like to make: you don't either have the metamorphagus talent or not. Remember Tonks' trouble with controling the power when she was depressed (i.e. her emotions effected her previously innate skill).

 

That is basically the same thing as quantifying magic, as something that grows has to have a set point to start at, but that point can change over time. What I believe is that the 'source' of magic, or the muscle as you call it, does not grow, does not change, does not become better over time. It just is.

What you appropriate to 'exercising' magic is what I attribute to practice and talent. There may be a more efficient way to channel the magic, which is what a wand basically does, but the magic is still the same no matter how it us channelled/used.

Think of it this way - you would think Avada Kedavra is a much more powerful spell than say Expelliarmus but the way I see it is that the magic poured into both spells is the same (I can't think of a better way to put it right now). The magic is channelled through the wand in the same way but the wand movements, the incantation, the focus needed, the emotion behind the spell (in the case of an AK) are the things that affect how the spell will turn out. The fact that a mere disarming charm can fight against the killing curse says a lot about the 'power' of spells and magic. This suggests that there is no 'raw magic' that can overpower another spell, just the will of the caster and the focus/emotion behind it.

Fake Moody said that everyone in the classroom could hit him with an AK and he'd probably only get a nosebleed, that's not because they lack the magic needed to fuel the spell, as Harry has already demonstrated by this point how a 13 year old can cast a highly advanced piece of magic (read: Patronus Charm, which I'm sick of referencing now). What he means is that the necessary emotion needed to cast the curse or the focus required are not present within the the students to successfully cast the spell.

Another example of this is Harry's first use of the Cruciatus Curse (my personal favourite scene in all the series), where he casts the spell backed by righteous fury at Bellatrix. The emotion he used, while very powerful indeed, was not the right one, and thus the spell succeeded for a moment (possibly, all we know is that she was knocked to the floor) but the curse unravelled before it could properly take hold. The necessary hatred and desire to cause pain was not present and thus the spell failed. There was no talk of lacking the power for the curse, there was only mention of the emotions needed to successfully cast it. Another point in my favour, I believe.

At this point I'm getting tired of reciting the same old rhetoric of the Patronus Charm and Expelliarmus so I'm going to say no more on this. It's obvious we've got different ideas on how magic works, and I'm willing to respect your opinion on it.

Now can we get back to what's important? Flying, pyromaniac, werewolves .

Aekiel

EDIT: Jesus Christ, when did I start writing essays about magic?

 

How do you have magical exhaustion if your magic isn't quantifiable? Do you think it's just over-using the channels that you can take your unquantifiable magic out of?

 

Many people, myself included, do not believe in magical exhaustion. Especially as there's no canon proof of it (i.e. it never happens once in the Harry Potter books).

 

I disagree by principle. Butterflies effect the world just as much as Dumbledore and Voldemort do.

Perhaps they effect society, but even, Crabbe could do something stupid and piss off Harry who could then become stronger than both of the aforementioned, and it would have been Crabbe who started it all.

Power is the ability to command others. Wisdom is the power over self. Voldemort and Dumbledore are not very wise, Voldemort being glutinous, and Dumbledore manipulating people and generally ignoring the negative effects of his actions in favor of his own desires. Both men do have power, but don't think that power can do much to shape the world. If that were the case, GWB would control the world right now.

 

The stubborn mule in me insists I have to have the last word. First, never ever say that the Disarming Charm can overcome the Killing Curse. It only happened because of the Priori Incantatem effect and because Harry was the master of the Elder Wand, which Voldemort tried to kill him with. If Voldemort had just grabbed another person's wand, I'm sure Harry will be on a one-way trip back to King's Cross Station. What happened in the aerial battle won't happen again now that the horcrux connection previously linking the two has been broken. Remember that it has been stated in canon that the Killing Curse cannot be countered by any non-physical barrier/spell.

You cannot use the Patronus Charm as a comparison to the Killing Curse. Yes, the Patronus Charm is a highly advanced bit of magic, but largely so because of the strength of the emotions needed to cast it. On the other hand, Fake Moody explicitly stated in GoF that the Killing Curse needs a "good bit of power behind it". There you go, power exists and is not insignificant in affecting spells. One is difficult to cast because you actually need power (Remember that it has never been stated that you need emotions to power a Killing Curse. That applies only to the Cruciatus. This is proved by the fact that the Imperius doesn't seem to need them too, from what we've seen. Harry points his wand at the goblin and the goblin comes under control. Simple as that.). The other is difficult because you need sufficiently positive emotions in order to cast it. Hence, the two are totally different in why one would classify them as "advanced magic".

Next, the Cruciatus Curse has never been described as difficult to pull off, unlike the Killing Curse, which, once again I remind you has been stated to need sufficient power from the caster to be successfully casted. My proof that the Cruciatus, while being an Unforgivable, is not the "advanced magic" that everyone seems to think it is? Crabbe and Goyle being proficient in it. If the two can pull it off easily, it is no difficult magic. It just needs a sadistic streak in a wizard/witch, which, to some, is even easier that summoning up positive emotions.

So yes, three points to me, I believe. As for the rest of your argument (Magic being unquantifiable), it is clear we are all refusing to budge on our stances. I shall argue on this no more, as I doubt it will achieve anything. I just got annoyed at Taure basically pronouncing his views as right on the basis that JKR states so, when she evidently did not.

As for my parting shot:

Still, you are either born with it or you are not. You can't become a Metamorphmagus if you are not born one. This has been clearly stated in canon. Your point could in fact be evidence that control over the ability is scaleable/quantifiable, which will deliver a blow to your view that magic is unquantifiable. But like I said, I don't wish to argue this point. Just accept that with regards to the ability being innate and inherent, I am right and you are wrong.

Yes, now we can, yes.

EDIT: Much lulz at the negrep I am getting just because I am disagreeing with a veteran of the boards. So, Taure can never be wrong because he's been on here a long time? So much too, for free speech if I can't even have the last word through a post wherein I've brought up points I believe to be valid.

 

To just state some thing for the above arguments:

Taure, couldn't you just replace the concept of 'magical strength', with your previously posted 'authority'.


For the main point of this thread:

Why couldn't Hagrid be changed?

The werewolf curse isn't a potion, it's an infection. The only problem I would see for this is that his size might require the need for more than just one bite and that his giant blood could make him somewhat resistant.

We don't really know much about what the werewolf curse is, so why not?

A transformed!Hagrid would be so awesome.

 

If Hagrid could be changed, do you think his werewolf form would be just as huge as his human/giant form?

 

Because of the same reason why Teddy Lupin isn't a werewolf. IIRC JKR stated that the metamorphmagus ability sort of overwhelmed the werewolf curse, hence he is a Metamorphmagus, but not a werewolf. So, if Hagrid is bitten, I'm guessing his giant blood will render him immune to the curse. It's magic's way of ensuring no creature/species ends up with too many abilities, be they bad or good.

 

Natural segregation, gotta love it . Still, Tonks is a full metamorphmagus while Hagrid is only half-giant. He could develop a partial infection like Bill, enough to even transform, maybe.

On the other hand, even developing aggressive traits around the full moon would be a bad thing for a guy who can fight hippogriffs and acromantula. Hmm, I'm gonna have to think on this some more, I've just had an idea.

Aekiel

 

Ye gawds.

Look. The reason HP has so much fanfic (discounting fangirls for a moment) is that there's so much that's outlined or hinted at but not nailed down. Want magical exhaustion in your fics? Go for it. Hagrid got bit by a werewolf? He's immune or he ain't, it's up to you. Is magic better than muggle tech? Are wands really necessary for magic? Are there degrees of metamorphmagic? Is magic about strength or only skill?

Getting the idea?

Then, of course, Rowling does an interview or a new book and fucks us all over by saying that Blaise is a dude or Tonks likes Bill or the power the Dark Lord knows not really is love. At which point we bitch about it for a day or two and then cheerfully ignore it, until a debate like this comes up.