One thing that has always bothered me about JKR's world is that there is no limit on the Press. A century and a half ago (which seems to be the era that the British Wizarding World decided to adopt permanently,) a powerful man could challenge someone for publicly calling him a liar. It seems that either one should have legal protection, or a victim be able to defend his honor in a more pointed fashion. Instead, Skeeter runs all over Harry's (a minor child) reputation, privacy, and what little happiness he manages to snatch out of life.

Because she has been left entirely unchecked, her smear campaign helped set back Resistance against Voldie for almost a year. Let's not ignore what it did to Harry personally. When the war Finally makes it to public knowledge, when it's no longer purely political but has become active attackes on children, she chooses Right Then to release a hideously slanted attack on the man who most exemplifies the Light, and AGAIN hobbles the effort to unite against Voldemort. Dumbledore's suicide-by-Snape is rendered nearly meaningless, and any hope to use his murder to rally support becomes hopeless.

And she got away with it cold.

I'll grant that the British Wizarding World is composed entirely of sheeple, but No One ever reprimands her. I've KNOWN ethical reporters - what Skeeter does insults everyone who ever Responsibly reported the news.

Maybe JKR has suffered from the paparazzi?

 

The relation between the press and the government seems very close, the Prophet seems to be just a propaganda organ for the Ministry, in fact. And the Ministry has been divided over the pureblood thing for a long time. If I weren't a cynic I'd say that Rowling wanted to demonstrate the paralysis of the Ministry and the absence of any independent press (the Quibbler being a joke).

But I am, so I'd say that she just needed some non-evil villains to beat up Harry with.

 

I doubt it. If you haven't noticed, she's a bit of an attention whore. She just needed Harry to be isolated. She wanted him to rise out of oppression and doubt to bring hope. Can't do that if the wizarding world isn't in turmoil.

She kinda fails at making Harry bring hope, but I think that was her intention.

 

Ever since Dueling in real life was made illegal...the freedom of the press has become a cancer that it was not intended to be.

The founders in our own nation codified freedom of the press... but at the same time they lived in an era where people could and DID kill over slander and honor.

In such an environment press people watched their words and while slander and inuendo were still very much present... there was a recourse that the modern system of the courts in the US has never equaled.

In GB... the same is true unfortunately.

Personally I'm all for bringing back the right to duel. Sure there'd be a few bloody years where people would go bannanas with it... but I think it'd reinject a whole lot of civility into society.

 

Frankly, I want to know why she was allowed on campus at all. A known muck-raker was the only member of the press to attend the wand weighing. Dumbledore let her wander around freely. No one arranged for an adult to accompany Harry, although he's only fourteen. Where was his Head of House? Where was someone to stand in loco parentis? AD HAD to know the kind of filth that she spews - why not even attempt to shield a child?

 

You talk as if the wizarding world had sense. Though she didn't get off that easily. Remember Hermione's condition for keeping her secret... if that can be considered punishment.

Skeeter's isn't the only one to get off scot free. Draco does it often. Snape all the time. And let not forget our all favourite Umbridge. Did she pay for all her misdeed in school when it was found of she was wrong? Did any of them.

In all the cases they commit many crimes and seem to only receive moral punishments. Slytherin loosing the house cup, Umbridge humiliated by Peeves is just run off, Skeeters outsmarted by a 14 yr old. Thats it.... feels very hollow.

 

Good point, Niffler

In fact if you really look closely at her stories the one thing that really shines through is total moral weakness on her part. The central concept is that if you're wicked (as in cruel and evil)... you'll never be properly punished, but if you're good, you end up a mediocre do nothing, who ends up abused, punished, and victimized throughout their life, with their victimizers getting away scot free.

The fact that the Death eaters, never really ended up getting punished even after all the hurt they caused is a sure sign that she's morally weak and utterly too soft to deal with reality (I weep for how bad her crime novel is going to turn out). Case in point...the Malfoys got off scot free even through we know that they killed and tortured others. That's just wrong. She should have ruined them utterly and stripped them of their magic in some way. Punish them best by making them the thing they hated. Muggles.

Skeeter as well, with her penchant for ruining peoples lives, also never paid for her vindictive and petty evil (some of the worst kind because it's evil done for amusement sake). Umbridge never pays for her crimes, and from all indictations, the people that enforced the dictates of the corrupted and controlled ministry did so without penalty as well.

I'm put to mind how the nuremberg trials dealt with germans whose excuses were "I was just following orders"

Just following orders was deemed to NOT be an excuse when violations of basic human decency is at stake. Everyone that knew what they were doing was wrong in the story should have been dealt punishments of a real and lasting nature. Unfortunately Rowlings turned out to be a sucky writer as moralists go.

The HP verse boasts a brilliant set of characters... a fun setting...and plenty f potential... and she ruined it with her inability to take a hard line and maturely punish the characters that needed to feel the scourge of fate pealing the skin off their wicked backs. Children need a good moral story where the Good aren't pansies, the evil get punished harshly, and the uncaring or cowardly get shamed and reviled for their moral weakness.
Softening the message of a moral story by not raining justice down on ALL the wicked just sends the message that good is stupid and weak.

 

You're right - all the SHIT that rained down on Harry, all his suffering, all his courage and his removal of a major threat to society ... and what did he get? Married, with three kids. NOT an unreasonable ambition, but where is the new-and-improved Ministry? What happened to the Brighter Future?

Maybe JKR wanted each of her readers to imagine whatever denoument would satisfy the individual. Of course, in that case she shouldn't have confirmed Ginny as the Wife-of-Potter; JKR should have left the slot undetermined (like she did for so many other issues,) that way those of us here at Dark Lord Potter would be SOOOO much happier. And the Yaoi fangirls would be thrilled, too. Personally, I'd have paired him up with either Hermione or Luna. Both of them are strong complements to canon!Harry, each in her own way.

Frankly, I'd RATHER Harry end up with a guy, than Ginny-the-stalker-chit. JKR made her a nonentity for several books, then suddenly produced this PERFECT IN EVERY WAY mate for our hero. I figure that she knew she'd need a love interest (sixteen and hormonal) but didn't want to put much effort into it.

 

I like writing as Rita. I skipped over her parts in DH. Hell, I skipped much of DH and I think many of you understand why.

Though she is a tabloid writer, I compare her to the more powerful gossip columnists of the 1930's up to the early days of TV. They wielded poison pens and were capable of destroying an actor or actresses careers with relative impunity.

The contracts actresses signed back then would be considered barbaric. There were weight clauses, pregnancy clauses and other crap that would in no way shape or form fly these days.

Nowadays, a rumor of a tummy bulge on Angelina Jolie isn't much. Back in the 30's, it could've destroyed her career.

Rita is a caricature of the worst of these gossip columnists. The actress in GoF did a nice job of portraying her as a person who feels that she is every bit as important as the story she is writing and needs to remind the readers of that constantly.

Still even in today's society, tabloids publish stories they know will get them sued. I reckon they know it when they take it to press. It's part of the parasitic relationships the stars have with the media. My guess is if Britney didn't have a new album out, her handlers if they were smart would have her buried under a rock, drying out and sobering up. Instead, they want her out in the public eye and it's not going so well for her is it.

The wizarding government for all intents is corrupt as long as those in power are being catered to by the press, they will allow the writers great latitude.

I actually have a plot bunny that sprung out of something I had Rita say in Darkness. Hermione arrives home to find aurors and ministry officials waiting for her at the end of book 4. Rita turns her in to the Ministry and Hermione is convicted of kidnapping, wrongful imprisonment and coercion into a magical oath.

Rita has to pay a small fine for being an illegal animagus, but Hermione goes to Azkaban. Instead of trumping up charges against Harry, they use Hermione and the treatment she recieves in the slammer as a method for controlling/muzzling Harry and Dumbledore in year 5. (After all, if DD would go to that length to try and help Draco effing Malfoy, I'd assume he at least make some effort on Hermione's part.) I still can't fathom how the ministry would believe that the students of Hogwarts are a threat to them, so we must restrict their education.

Personally, I'd have loved to see a bit of vengeance in the epilogue for the wrong doers. It wouldn't ave made stomaching Albus Severus Potter any easier, but it couldn't have hurt.

Jim

 

If you're going to quote a historical event such as the nuremberg trials you should get your facts straight. This like history in general was written by the victors. Do you know how the allies defined warcrimes? Whatever the germans did that we didn't.
Carpet bombing civilian targets? Oh wait we did that too so that's acceptable warfare.
Sinking civilian targets with subs? Oh wait we did that too. <- Allied sub commanders testified on behalf of german sub commanders.

On topic, the wizarding world is just corrupt. The legal system can be bribed through, power can be bought and the press is controlled by the state. If Lucius got away with a slap on the wrist after what he did, Umbridge wouldn't have any problems at all. For the same people that back Lucious' policies back Umbridge's policies.

Skeeter, like all evil characters were written exceedingly poorly. Rowling needed a medium with which to antagonize Harry and turn the population against him. Enter Rita Skeeter. As someone else pointed out, a notorious bitch of a journalist would have certainly warranted teacher supervision during the wand weighing ceremony. Nobody calls on her bullshit. Enough powerful people must have been slandered throughout her career to be pissed off enough to fuck her over. And in the real world, slander is not journalism.
If you think about it, The Daily Prophet seems to be the most circulated newspaper in Britain. There is of course things like Teen witch weekly or The Quibbler but it seems the Prophet is where most people get their news. No real competition. Now using Skeeter's heavily biased articles makes the Prophet de-facto a tabloid. And for magical Britain's only real newspaper to be a tabloid is well..

 

About that Bunny:
* cringe *
The worst part is, I can see it happening - although I'm pretty sure that JKR mentions that the penalty for being unregistered is significant. However, it's quite possible that The Prophet will pick up the tab - it'll be a drop in the ocean compared to how many papers her nastiness sells, and good advertising, as well.

Of course, THAT would bring out Violent/Vengeful Harry with a roar. He's got lots of power at his command. The only ones who have ALWAYS been loyal to Harry are Hedwig, and Hermione; everyone else has let him down, manipulated him, abused him, or neglected him. Even Hagrid is loyal to Dumbledore first. The only way AD could keep a lid on Harry would be by STRONG coercion - otherwise, he'd have a pressure cooker just waiting for a chance to lash out. Draco or Snape would DIE the first time they provoked him.


Edited to Add:
You know, this is the nucleus for a Really Different Revenge!Harry fic - a Harry on the warpath, with Granger Fully Backing Him Up. NO mistakes made because Harry is too furious to things through. The Aurors are baffled - forensics come up completely negative. Harry doesn't wade though gore; Harry and Hermione *destroy* them. Their goal is nothing less than every DE and DE sympathizer to die in agony, completely bankrupt, with their minor children being adopted outside the country by Light families.

You said that "Hermione returns home," which means that this happens at the beginning of the summer vacation. So AD keeps Harry incommunicado for the entire summer (again,) and arranges for Harry to be delivered directly to Hogwarts, so that no one tips him off on the train. Harry is presented with this fait accompli - Hermione has been incarcerated in Hell for *months,* and no one told him. He can't visit. He can't even write - Hedwig just circles the Tower in bewilderment.

Then AD says something like, "This is all for the best, we have changed the school wards to ban animagi, and now everyone will know to watch out for Skeeter. And we are working to free Miss Granger - I'm sure that she is doing well and we will have her released soon. Concentrate on your studies, my boy, and work hard at your Quidditch game. Lemon drop?"

* looks around *
Show of hands, now:
What percentage of the population would go BERSERK in this circumstance?

 

A good topic that I'd like to post my views on. Props to Banner.

About Rita Skeeter: I would like to point out that being a member of the press, you do have some liberties. These you can abuse, but there is a certain limitation. As it's said - It's cheating only if you get caught. Rita's published stories do contain the truth, albeit not the whole truth. It is twisted enough that the real stuff is buried way beneath the crap.

The other point is that she has evidence in her favor. She usually collects quotes from people to support her view, however biased that may be. This ultimately helps protecting her from legal harm. She may say, "I have written what I have been told." And she's out of danger. The people who say things cannot be sued as everyone has the freedom of speech.

Thirdly, the quotes are often from people who share her viewpoint. Slamming Harry, there's always the Ferret and his cronies. Dumbledore has his own collection of haters due to him being the muggle-loving fool. These people are often respected in society (the reason of respect may be their wealth or infuence) or have connections that will save them from prosecution. Money talks and Bullshit walks.

Fourthly, the Press and the Ministry are buddies through and through. They know how to use the other for their own needs. Fudge used the Prophet to discredit HP and AD. The paper in turn will be protected by the Ministry.

Man is intelligent, in a group he becomes a sheep. The readers are really sheeple. They can be easily influenced. This is the main reason why the stories are easily believed. Remember the bubotuber pus Hermione got. At that time, even Mrs. Weasley believed the stories.


Conclusion: Not enough evidence to prosecute. Political connections to aid. No morality as the post topic says. In short, you go free.

Plot Bunny: This is a very realistic scenario. Props to Jim for sharing this. I would really like to see this happen. Blood and gore are loved by all. This may even turn out to be Evil! Harry. Dark Lord Potter - The One Who Everyone Fears.

About JKR: We should be thankful to her for creating this wonderful universe. Doesn't mean we should go along with whatever she says.

Ginslut Potter, Albus Severus Potter, Lovesick Snivellus (as said earlier) - this is utter crap. She definitely screwed up a lot of things, relations for one, but the Epilogue was WTF! I laughed for an hour after reading that. It was a total killjoy.

 

* bows *
Thank you!

* screaming and throwing things *
* deep breath *
Sorry, but I needed to vent. Really - it had to be done.

* sigh *
I keep reminding myself - the books were written for children, the books were written for children...

Yep.

 

Oh yes, yes... because everyone knows that we ran concentration camps where we gassed, shot, and starved people to death. And we invaded countries during WWII occupied and looted them rather than liberated them and returned them to self rule... yeah... tell it like it is, man.

Puh-lease.. don't pull that moral equivilency bullshit here... it's not going to fly. People on DLP are a whole lot more intelligent than to fall for it.

The Germans were the aggressors and they were carrying out a systematic campaign of destruction targeting anyone that was their enemy. The troops in place were following orders... but they were following orders that they knew were illegal.

Saddly, you can't combat that sort of evil by playing by civilized rules. You have to break the morale of their people, and that meant fighting an all out war.

Now... as to the comment on the plot bunny.. of Harry not letting the guilty go ... I'd actually like to see that... It'd be interesting seeing a fic where the Purebloods end up getting their power base broken. Things like a number of pureblood wizengamoot members getting assassinated publicly through muggle methods that never occured to Wizards to shield against. (Magic penetrating bullet from a sniper rifle perhaps) Though I'd prefer it was a concerted effort among muggleborn rather than just Harry and hermione... in fact maybe only including muggleborn or muggle raised only so that Ron could be excluded from it and kept in the dark about what is going in "for his own good".

As to seeing their children adopted away... feh... screw the kids... kids are assumed to be pure little snowflakes that are just misguided. Bullshit. Kids are vicious little ankle biters. If they're raised to be supremest scum and buy into it you aren't gonna fix that sort of indoctrination no matter how much love you give em. Go for the hurt.

 

I didn't make myself clear: I meant ALL the DE/pureblood supremacist sympathizers killed, whatever their age. The truly young-and-innocent (under the age of seven or eight or so,) would end up FAR away, where pureblood is a non-issue; probably Australia or the States. The Family name would die out, and the Gifts and genetic traits would be assimilated into different lines.

Besides, a bullet is fast and clean. I want them to suffer, helplessly, as Everything they value is smashed and scattered irretrievably. Imagine Lucius Malfoy in a state that LOOKS like the Longbottoms, but he would be completely aware...

 

Did you even read what I wrote? Just because there are a few debating hotshots on this forum doesn't automatically make you one. The trials were made so that anything the allies did during the course of the war was fine. Anything they didn't wasn't. Concentration camps = not fine
Gassing civilian targets = not fine
Nuking civilian targets = fine
Terror bombing civilian targets = fine
Raping and pillaging entire cities = fine
Sinking transport and medical ships = not fine but oops, forgot, our side did it too, so yeah fine

It's funny that you automatically brand the germans as evil. Fighting an all out war means doing any means possible to achieve victory. Which in your own words would then justify everything ever done in the name of war. Sadly the world doesn't work that way you see, limits have to be drawn. That's what differs "us" from the uncivilized idiots of the rest of the world.

Suffering is suffering. Killing is killing. But the victors of world war 2 got to decide what was morally fine and what wasn't. Which is bullshit by itself. Soldiers on both side were "just following orders", only one side got called to confess their sins so to speak.


Banner: That would be the logical way to handle things given no moral restraints and a black and white world, an example of all out no holding back war. It'd be a funny read but as a serious one, no, not really. This ties in with the legal system of today. You are innocent until proven otherwise.

Mass executing every family with any remote ties to the dark is not okay. The state kidnapping children and force translocating them is not okay. Not only is this a big moral nono, there would be nobody trustworthy enough to decide which families warranted an execution. The precedent would also be set, basically anyone with beliefs contrary to what the leader tells you warrants an execution. Not even the church went that far, they would only kill you if you refused to renounce your heretical thoughts. With this system you'd just be dead.

This is the kind of enviroment where the ministry of magic could make up laws like force marrying muggle borns (sexgod!Hermione) into pureblooded families (Snape/Malfoy) for the betterment of the wizarding world. You know, those bullshit smut fic ideas that would never fly in the real world.

 

And, once again, I misspoke. I'm sorry, everyone - I can't seem to properly phrase my ideas tonight. I was describing a RevengeFic, NOT a proposal to tidy up the British Wizarding World. I doubt the BWW CAN be tidied up; the corruption is embedded in the fabric.

I actually enjoy revenge fics when I'm in the mood. I have a file of addresses for Azkaban!Harry stories, and my favorites DO NOT have the characters end up sitting in a circle and holding hands while singing "Kumbaya." The story I envisioned had an enraged (pushed over the edge into a sheer wish to HURT the people who damaged his friend) Harry and a psychotic (a child abandoned by her supposed protectors and exposed to dementors) Hermione Getting Even. They might tell themselves that they are trying to fix the problem, but for me it's simply a way to purge the anger that certain characters bring out in me.

JBern, we seem to have taken your bunny and mutated it FAR from what you probably planned. If you like any of my ideas and suggestions, *please* feel free to use them. If not, no insult is intended.

 

A self-hating nazi apologist? lol.

 

damn you ,yak ... you beat me to the punchline.

He probably thinks that the purebloods are justified in persecuting the muggleborn too. They are invading the domain of the purebloods... magic... so they are clearly the aggressors....

 

I must ask you, are you in some way mentally handicapped? This is a thread about morality and you seem to have no reason to go with whatever you think is morality.

You point out nuremberg as an example of where society put their foot down and said, this is not okay!

I counter with saying that nuremberg was neither fair nor just with the allied nations with the so called moral high ground opted to use warfare that was deemed war crimes at nuremberg in every goddamn war following.

You counter with saying that the massacre of more than ten million people in concentration camps is a warcrime which I agree with. You continue with pointing out that only the soldiers of the axis commited warcrimes, which utterly ignoring my first point is still bullshit. You follow up by mentioning how being a member of DLP automatically gains you intelligence +5. And the most hilarious part is when you conclude with saying you (allies) need to "fight an all out war". Which de-facto means committing war crimes.

I once again try to point out how rediculous your statements seem. To recount:
You: Warcrimes baad! Germans baad!
Me: Warcrimes baad! Everyone in the war were baad!
You: Germans baad! Slaughter them all!
Me: Uhm okay you advocating warcrimes now?
You: <Mentions the exact opposite of what I've been trying to point out to you because you really do not have a fucking clue of what the hell I'm saying>

My point: Who the fuck cares who the aggressors were? That was never what I was trying to point out. What's important is that war is nasty business with both sides committing atrocities. If you wanted to make a likness it would have been Dumbledore AK'ing every child in Slytherin to "morally break" the opposition with no distinction on innocence and then throwing Death Eaters to Dementors for doing the exact same thing.
It's totally irrelevant who did it first or who had the most reason to, fact of the matter is Dumbledore shouldn't have in the first place, and as he did, he sure as fucking hell should have been called upon his bullshit double standard.

hypocrisy: When whatever measuring stick you use against someone else doesn't apply to you. Germans kill civilians? Warcrime. Allies kill civilians? Fuck yes that's a warcrime too.

Now shut your trap if you once again fail to point out anything other than your ignorance.