To be completly honest, I am not totally sure that this is the right forum for this. However, it seemed the closest to what I actually wanted to talk about.

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person in fanon that can't stand Remus Lupin, and I guess this post is to see if any one else out there has simular feelings.

I admit that it's mostly fanon that gets under my skin most with Lupin. Mostly in Independent Harry fics where Harry finds his parently will and finds out that he was supposed to be (or there was a chance he would be) raised by Remus. This just doesn't fly with what we know of cannon. James and Lilly, (along with padfoot), belived that Remus may have been the traitor in the first OOtP. That being the case I very much doubt that Remus would of been on the list of folks they prefered to raise Harry.

Also in fanon (and usually in Indy Harry fics), Remus all the sudden becomes a father figure for Harry. He opens up to him, and Remus becomes the honorary godfather. I am just not sure why? Sure they talked a little during third year, and Remus taught Harry the Patronus. But as far as I can tell, from cannon, that's it, there really was no other significant dialog between the two for the rest of the series.

It seems, cannon wise, that there next real disscussion was when Harry was reading him the riot act for leaving Tonks while she was about to pump out his spawn. Not really blamming Remus for that, I am just saying that from what I rememeber that was there only other real dialog with each other.

I also often wonder why Remus, if he was such good friends with James and Lilly, never once tried to contact Harry during his years at the Dursley's. Of course I don't mean he should of dropped everything to go and see Harry, but it seems Remus was intelligent enough to use the muggle mail system at the very least. Whether the Dursley's would of let Harry have the mail is another question all together.

For Remus to make Harry Teddy's godfather, is not a strech, even if they were not very close. I assume, at least from canon, that even though Remus was a nice man, that he didn't have very many friends, really only one, in Padfoot.

I do want to point out here, that I don't dislike Remus because of him and Tonks getting together. Do I like that ship? No way in hell, however, I disliked him way before even book six came along.

I guess what I am asking is if anyone can give canon evidence that Remus and Harry were as close as fanon makes them out to be.

As a side note, out of damn near every fanfic I have read, Jbern's fic, and maybe just one or two more have ever really showed Remus in a bad light, and for fanfic writers I find that amazing.

 

On one hand Remus is harry's closest link to his parents, on the other he's had a troubled past, unemployment and his furry little problem, so really even if Dumbledore made the decision for the wizarding world to not contact him, I don't think it would of been a good idea. It was only till dumbledore gave him the job at hogwarts did his life turn around.

I would presume that harry has had more connection to Lupin, but the way that he continues to call him Professor in later books casts doubt on that. It's another plot hole. Obviously there was alot of pressure to make book six shorter, so perhaps there might of been a conversation or a series of conversations there, lets face it his only father figure is Vernon, and he has an old headmaster talking about the darkest of dark magic. But IMO, she could of chopped of 75% of the horcrux stuff, and started finishing the other plotlines.

 

I am just not sure that the first part of your statement flies at all. Having a troubled past, and a furry little problem might constitute his not seeing Harry. However, I see no problem whatsoever with opening correspondence through mail. As a matter of fact, that seems, at least on the surface, something that could of possibly helped Remus with his "troubled past".

As far as being a father figure, I just don't buy it at all. Jk, may have even said that somewhere, either in an interview or in the books but I don't buy it for a second. From what we know of canon Harry really didn't even see Padfoot as a father figure. It almost seemed if Harry just saw him as a friend more than anything. I mean in OOtP Harry spent next to no time talking to him. Instead he spent most of his time with Ron and Hermione. Which I guess you could argue could be Molly's fault.

At any rate, I do agree that the whole thing is a canon plot hole. However, if Harry had to have a father figure, and as much as I dislike the Weasley's, I would rather him choose Mr. Weasley than Remus. I mean Remus comes off as a depressing old sod in the books. Well at least to me he does.

 

For the sake of argument, give me a couple good reason why he shouldn't be a replacement godfather. We know that he was one of James' best friends. we know that despite being a werewolf he's a good person. We know that he has a vested interest in Harry's wellbeing, and that he's a good teacher and (presumably) good at keeping information given in confidence when the situation calls for it.

Setting that aside, I'd guess that your dislike of Remus stems more from the same source as most of DLP's dislike of Ginny. He's usually an overused Cliche'd Deus Ex device in Fanfiction, and he was negligent of his duty to his friend's son in Cannon.

 

I have already said that I belive that most of dislike of Lupin comes from fanon. I am not denying that at all.

If he was one of James best friends, why could of not sent a simple note to Harry for almost 12 years. I will even admit that doing so would of been of strange for both Lupin and Harry. However, the point is that he didn't.

He supposedly became somewhat of a "friend" (as much as a professor can be a friend) of Harry's during third year. However, Harry, during fourth year, never once thought about contacting Lupin when the tournament was going on. Same with fifth year. An argument could be made that at these times he also had Sirius to turn too, so that point could be made moot as well.

However, during sixth year, no Padfoot, yet Harry never once thout of contacting Lupin...

The point is I belive Harry saw Lupin for what he was. One of his father's friends, nothing more or nothing less. I can almost guarntee that canon Harry would turn to Mr. Weasley before he would Remus.

Once again, as fairly clearly stated in my opening post, most of the dislike of Remus comes from the way he is potrayed in fanon, and I belive that has caused me to dislike canon Remus as well. I will not deny that at all. However, from canon evidence I still don't see where all the Lupin love comes from. And I am still firm on my stance that what evidence there is in canon would never support Remus becoming some alternate godfather for Harry.

 

9 out of 10 fics will feature Lupin training Harry, and 10 out of 10 independent fics will feature Lupin training Harry.

Really, where is this basis for Lupin's incredible dueling skills? He taught Harry a Patronus, and was able to keep thirteen year olds from falling asleep. Hardly a master dueler.

And of course, the Remus/Tonks ship. That came out of nowhere. I don't hate this pairing, but it would have been nice to have some forewarning, like the Harry/Ginny ship. She goes from being a mildly interesting secondary character to Harry's True Love puke: ) in the space of one book.

For his negligence of Harry... Dumbles no doubt assured him that Harry was fine, so he stayed away. Or, possibly, he stayed away because it hurt too much. It's been stated ad nauseum that Harry is the spitting image of his father - it'd make sense if Lupin didn't want to see him.

Or it could be that JKR never thought of him prior to PoA, and forgot about him in GoF.

I'd like to read a independent!Harry manipulative!Dumbledore where Lupin (and Tonks) remain firmly on Dumbledore's side. That'd be a nice change.

 

I'd like to read a independent!Harry manipulative!Dumbledore where Lupin (and Tonks) remain firmly on Dumbledore's side. That'd be a nice change.


I agree with that Doctor. It seems to me Dumbledore went above and beyond the call of duty by allowing Remus to go to Hogwarts. It is possible that he could of gotten fired for letting a werewolf child go school, with the chances of another child being bit.

That has to create a shit load of loyalty from Remus. I mean, calling him in to be a teacher is a big deal and all, but he would of never gotten that chance at all if Dumbldore hadn't of taken the chance to let him go to school.

Sure there would also be loyalty to James/Lilly/Sirius as his best friends. They did a ton for him as well, including in James and Sirius's case becoming animagus. But it just seems that that too stems from Dumbldore allowing him to go to school.

I know I sound like a complete Dumbles lover here, but I can assure you I am not. However, you have to admit that is was damn nice/risky thing for him to do for Remus.

As an aside: Earlier I talked about Harry finding his parents wills and the possibility that Remus wouldn't be listed as someone to take care of Harry because at the time they belived he was the traitor. However, James, Lilly, and Siruis trusted Pettigrew, so wouldn't he probably be listed somewhere in the will, and possibly as an option to take care of Harry.

 

Remus and Sirius are in the same boat really. Both were cool in POA then became a bit pathetic and lame.

Sirius was this uber-powerful wizard, Voldemort's second, able to outsmart Dumbledore. Even after his innocence was revealed he was still pretty cool. But then all the Marauder back-history emerged, and at the same time as the books went by he seemed to be marginalised from this really powerful wizard to simply talented but nothing extraordinary.

The same happened to Remus, though in a different way. He was the cool DADA teacher, mysterious and friend of Harry's father. But then he seemed to make the transition to all emo and at the same time was also sidelined as a character.

Remus I don't really care about, but the loss of Sirius' coolness was annoying. In my opinion, JKR should have found a way to keep him more involved in books 4 and 5, which would have also resulted in his death being more of a shock. He should have been at the forefront of the resistance to Voldemort, convict or not (he did after all survive fine on his own for over a year) and JKR should have kept his ability at the level that POA suggested.

 

Welcome to the club, Drajjen.

I, for one, don't have an opinion about fanon!Remus. As a MWPP reader and writer, I picture him as a shy, thoughtful kid, but embittered enough by his condition to believe his friends would let him down if they knew what he was (although that's understandable). I don't like it when he's written as a perfect boy, serious, mature, good-looking and exceptionally gifted to boot -- we have next to no reason to believe he was an excellent wizard. He was good, okay, but not nearly as good as James, Sirius or Snape.

I don't like canon!Remus.

As an adult, in canon, he still hasn't grown out of his habit to wallow in self-disgust and consider himself unworthy of having friends or a family. He's, under that aspect, a bit of a coward, as Harry told him in DH. I almost cheered during this scene -- Mr. Perfect finally got what was coming to him.

He's a more complex character than most fans think he is: they've transformed him into a kind of Gary Stu. I don't think that's how JKR wanted to write him, as she showed in DH.

 

Wow. I think some people here need to reread the books. First of all, Remus may have sent Harry letters, but the Dursley's may have confisticated them, as they did with the letter Dumbledore left, and Harry's Hogwarts letters.

Also, the fact that Remus wasn't that cool of a wizard, he was. In the battle in the OOTP, he was the only adult Order member, besides Dumbledore, who was still standing. He also was very competent in the HBP battle, and all in all, I think he's a great wizard.

The main thing here is the whole Remus and Harry thing. I personally think that some people have overlooked several parts. Harry is always vey happy to see Remus, and often, after Sirius's death, asks him for his opinion. He asked Lupin if he knew who the Half Blood Prince was, and why Tonks's Patronus had changed. Harry often thought of Lupin during GOF, actually comparing Mad Eye and Remus on how they treated Neville.

And some people make it seem like Remus is a total wimp, and is Mr. Perfect. That is bogus. Remus grew up thinking he was worthless, and with b****es like Umbridge keeping him back, how do you think he is going to feel? He's not emo, someone can be very lonely and sad without being a full blown self cutting, suicidal person! It's not like he's a high schooler who comes to school with cuts on their arms to be "hard core". He actually lives in constant fear of his "other" side, and is very sad. That doesn't make him dull, it makes him more real, because how many HP readers suffer from terminal illnesses, or depression, and can define by Remus Lupin?

Remus is perfect? Oh, yeah, a man who turn into a wolf that kills people is real perfect. Sorry to sound a bit mean, but did anyone else catch the fact that this man lied to Dumbledore, tried to kill Peter Pettigrew with an almost scary willingness, and blasted Harry Potter against a wall. Yeah, thats perfect all right. The guy's great, and one of the things that makes him great, is he does make mistakes, but he always fixes them and never blames anyone else. He was disgusted with himself for decieving Dumbledore, and never once tried to put the blame on Sirius, James, or Peter.

So, I think Remus is one of the greatest characters in the series, because he is loyal, clever, brave, kind, and is very easy to relate to.

 

With a name like moonyschick, I shouldn't even bother replying, but this part particularly irked me:

Loyal? Is this the same man who abandoned his wife and unborn child to go play with Harry, Hermione and the Ginger Nut? You'd think Rowling, whose theme throughout the books is ambition = bad, shitting out brats = good, would either demonise Lupin for running from his fucking pregnant wife, or wouldn't have written it in the first place.

 

Lupin is a person you can relate to? You turn furry once a month?

Thats a bit weird.

Lupin holding himself in the DoM, you do realise that the DE probably ignored him for targets that would actually be able to do something.

To answer another point. Would you be happy to see someone who knew your parents? If they were there, would you go to them?

 

I am really disgusted. I just attempted to state my opinion, and now I am being attacked personally. I didn't even understand all-powerful-oz's post, and The Doctor was horribly rude. I didn't attack anyone, and now I am being told to get the fuck out?

And I do relate to Remus, because I have a slight chemical inbalence that causes me to have odd habits. It's the same feeling of not really being able to control what your body does sometimes.

So, thank you for being rude and insulting. If you can't tell, I am really pissed. Attacking my username? That's mature

So, I am really sorry I even wasted thirty fucking minutes writing that post, as no one has the sense to take it seriously.

 

You necro'd a 3 month old thread, that is why you are being attacked. It isn't even an unwritten rule here. You necro, you get in shit. Though you did offer something constructive, which can justify necro posting.

I don't see why it should be expected for Lupin to write to Harry. I have little, if any contact with my parents' friends. I vaguely know who my godparents are. Plus, I'm sure the books mention that Remus was considered the spy and James and Lily did not trust him because of his Lycanthropy, so they probably fell out. I was also under the impression that Remus was in hiding of sorts until he tipped up in PoA, just bumming about, eating out of bins and that.

I think the reason the OP dislikes fanon Lupin is because he is usually written by fangirls who think it is cute for him to call Harry 'cub' or 'pup'

 

Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean it's right or that you have the right to express it. In fact, unless you've done the research, your opinion is probably wrong.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: LURK MOAR!

 

30 minutes? You're serious?

Hmm, I guess I should address some of it then, if only for courtesy's sake. Do try to be a bit less sensitive about things though - people are brutal about expressing themselves on DLP. People will say what they think and not care about other people's feelings in the process. Personally, I've grown to find it refreshing. You just have to get used to it.

Anyway, onto Remus Lupin...

Speculation. If we use the Dursleys confiscating letters as an argument in favour of saying that Lupin did indeed send Harry letters but they were confiscated, then this counts also for everyone else.

Voldemort sent Harry letters, only the Dursleys confiscated them.

Merlin sent Harry letters, only the Dursleys confiscated them.

God sent Harry letters, only the Dursleys confiscated them.

And so on.

It just doesn't work. We have to deal with what we have, and what we have is no evidence that Lupin sent Harry letters or tried to visit, even if we can contrive a situation in which he tried but failed.

This is true enough. However, he also didn't too too well on the offensive front either. Tonks, Kingsley and Sirius all tried to take down Bellatrix and then got defeated by her. Lupin never attempted to do so. So yes, he survived longer, but that's only because he risked less. I certainly didn't see him duelling (and defeating) 2 wizards at once like Kingsley did.

We don't really have enough information to go on to judge his performance in the HBP fight. As for a great wizard overall...Dumbledore is a very great wizard. McGonagall and Snape are great wizards. Lupin is in the next level down - skilled, but not spectacular. He's a Hermione.

Did you read DH?

Both of which Lupin wasn't particularly helpful at. Lupin was pretty dismissive of Harry's interest in the HBP, and only gave the barest of information of the Patronus.

Thinking about someone once is now thinking of them often? And since when does thinking about a person a few times a year mean you care for them?

Wow, I must really care for my cleaner. I think of her every day - around the time she wakes me up to empty my bin.

Proof? He seems quite well adjusted to his condition, emotionally speaking (though perhaps not financially...).

...The rest of your post is telling us why you think Remus is so great because he's not overly strong/perfect or overly weak/flawed. There's another word for this: average. And that's what Remus is.

As an afterthought, as a female you may want to avoid mentioning chemical imbalances and identifying with Remus Lupin, who has a monthly change. It's just asking for period jokes.

 

While I agree that Remus is spectacularly average, and I hate the absolute wuss JKR wrote him as, I have to disagree on the letters issue. I hold that there is simply not enough information to be able to tell for sure. Yes, Harry received nothing from him, which is damning. However, with as famous as he was, he also should have been receiving quite a bit of fan mail, which he didn't. A logical conclusion is that if Remus wrote to Harry during Harry's childhood, the letters went the same way as Harry's fanmail--whatever happened to it. It's a plothole that JKR never explained, as well as a reasonable explanation of what could have happened to any letters that Lily's and James's friends wrote to Harry.

 

I'm not particularly fond of Lupin as a character, but I think JKR did an adequate job of writing him; her omitting any letters from him to Harry is because they only exist in Remus's mind (if even there).

He's a guy with obvious failings, someone who is wholly self-absorbed to the point that, in canon, he showed no inclination for 12 years to check up on Harry. He only entered Harry's life when Harry approached him about teaching the patronus charm. Even then, he held his personal information close, sharing only a scant bit of his earlier life with a boy who is obviously desperate to hear of his parents. He failed to help Harry at all in the 4th year, knowing full well that the Tri-Wizard tournament was on--I don't recall any evidence of his having contacted Harry then. He has a woman that we're led to believe he's attracted to fall for him and doesn't allow her to get close, instead using his condition as a convenient excuse. Then, he tries to abandon said woman, pregnant and a target for Death Eaters a half dozen times over, during a war to run off with Harry for reasons that I'm sure sounded childish even to him. Outside of fulfilling his obligations for the Order (which could have been spurred by Dumbledore's having leverage over him), he never showed inclination to do anything for anyone, save himself.

JKR wrote him well--it's just that she wrote a self-absorbed, selfish bastard who shirks responsibility and can't relate to other people. For that, I agree, moonyschick, he is quite easy to relate to. (For me, anyway).

It's curious that so much of fandom has Moony as the next-in-line godparent should Sirius be unavailable, yet we never hear of Wormtail as being considered. Certainly, as the Potters trusted him as their secret keeper, they may have thought him a more suitable surrogate parent than the man who the Order thought to be a Dark Lord shill.

Folks, moonyschick wrote a lengthy, reasoned addition to a few-months-old thread on a subject that's obviously precious to her. She didn't kill your puppy, vote for Clinton, or even start a new thread to repeat the topic, any of which might have been worthy of a Class-A smackdown.

[Edit: fixed a couple typos]