this is more controversial than the work-choices legislation was.

 

Did you have your juice this morning?

 

Zomg Internet Fight!!!!!!11!!!11!!1

edit: That's odd, I've never seen an allcaps filter before.

 

It's rather hard to say anything about this chapter that hasn't already been said, but I shall endeavor to try.

The first thing that bothers me about all of this, is like many others, the change to Meciel's character--or rather, that Lily's love could affect her. As far as I'm concerned, it really matters little if Meciel cares about Harry or not (though I do feel it cheapens her character greatly to not have somehow worked this into the story itself, and instead just putting it into an interlude. It's like making Dumbledore gay after the fact, it's just uncool).

Meciel is old. Harry (Dresden, that is) said that when he soulgazed and encountered Ursiel, the presence of its mind was unfathomable, something so strong he had never felt anything like it, and that he'd never felt so outclassed. Now, let's count in a millenia of experiences, and time to get set in your ways, and, what? Can you really expect this little insert to make any difference at all? Meciel's presence is supposed to be even more powerful than Ursiel, who was already powerful, so Meciel should utterly crush anything that messed with it.

Anyway, that was the main thing that bothered me.

I'm not even going to bother to even start on the whole free-will concept, as there's just no way to win one way or another; this is, after all, Shezza's story, so it's up to him to decide.

Either way, I'll likely continue to read this story to see how it turns out. If I don't like the way it's going, I'll stop reading--there's no reason to bitch about it; I've got no claim to the story, and the only thing I can do is state my opinion.

 

No, the pharmacy burned down last night.

 

I am in violent agreement with everything Tinn Tam said. I am also gonna take Jon's side in the food fight.

 

I liked it. The only thing I wanted that wasn't there was maybe a scene where Dumbledore asks Meciel if she truly cares for Harry, and when he's not satisfied with the answer, he goes ahead with the spell. I thought it seemed like Dumbledore was just rushing into things. Maybe a transition scene between the two? I don't know.

I am curious as to see what Albus sacrificed to do this. The way I took it, at the end of the scene he got his sight back.

 

I think that he lost his Magical or Third Sight, which is used to see the true nature of things. I might be wrong, but hey, it does say:

 

Excellent.

Damn you really had to write this last paragraph? I was already beginning to imagine some twisted smut between Harry and Amanda.

Anyway, is it me or Harry is getting more soft; friends like to show their new tricks to each other... does that mean that Amanda is less of a brat and more of a friend?

 

Ok

First of all. I wish to say that Nuhuhs omake was never exactly horrible. I just did not think it fit to your story. Maybe with a bit of foreshadowing and preparation and such it will look better. We shall see. I have one more thought about that but I shall comment on the chapter itself first

I liked the way Harry used fiendfyre. It is a neat way of showing that his skills are steadily improving. I also liked the way he talks with Meciel. It somehow feels like friendly banter which is one of the reasons I don't want Meciel to be retconned into a mindless evil. This kind of stuff rules and the idea that its all lies would suck.

I also liked the banter between Harry and Amanda. It seems kind of cool that the two seem to be becoming friends. But then I am Harry/Amanda fan so thats no surprise. It does seem cool that Harry is developing friends though. Makes him more complex too. Will Harry actually do something nasty to Umbridge to protect Amanda? That might actually be rather cool. The whole bitchslap curse would actually be hilarious.

Now my final thoughts about the Meciel/Lily merging. It just occurred to me that if the important thing here is to give Meciel human nature and free will then there is a simple thing that would fix many of the problems I personally atleast had.

Have Meciel initiate the merging instead of Dumbledore. Here is what I mean:

One of the problems that I (and others too) had with the idea was that it seemed to make Dumbledore wayyy too powerfull. I have no problem with him being able to temporarily summon Meciel's image from the coin but having Dumbledore forcibly insert Lily into Meciel against her will I did not like. If however Dumbledore merely wanted to talk to find out if Meciel cares about Harry and Meciel would use that opportunity to absorb Lily this problem would be avoided. Also by having Meciel absorb Lily herself, you could say that the change happened to the true Meciel who floats in the outside. This would futher avoid the idea that it is only by sitting in Harry's body that she would be changed. This would essentially make the change permanent to her true self without having to make Dumbledore a god.

Another problem was that having Dumbledore so easily alter Meciel made her seem somewhat weak and pathetic. Again if its not Dumbledore that initiates the merging then this is avoided. Meciel would remain the powerfull archangel and not turn into a helpless kitten if she is the one that absorbed Lily freely instead of having Dumbledore force it down her throat.

Third problem I had was that Meciel was no longer Meciel. This too would be alleviated if its Meciel herself that does the deed. I suppose strictly speaking it would result in exactly the same thing but somehow it would "FEEL" different. Sort of like the difference between having say Harry perform some improvement-ritual or drinking some self-improvement potion or something like that instead of having Dumbledore but him under the imperius curse and ordering him to act just like he normally would but only better.

And finally it would somehow retain more of the ambiguity of Meciel. I mean when Dumbledore does it then no matter what you have Meciel say in response it simply feels like posturing from someone that has been defeated and we still get the impression that from now on she is going to turn into a good kind person. If however she does it herself then somehow we get the feel that she had planned it and as such we could expect that she is prepared for the consequences. This would further emphasise the idea that the merging will not turn Meciel into a harmless little girl, only give her more freedom to do both good and evil in whatever way she wants to.

As for why Meciel would want to absorb Lily? Well if it is as you say and she has no true free will, then would she not want to have one? In the second revision you had Meciel sound bitter at the idea that humans had free will when she did not. If you further foreshadowed this bitterness then having Meciel jump at the chance to get free will by absorbing Lily would seem reasonable to me?

I dunno. Maybe its actually a stupid idea? But here it is anyway for you to consider. Meh.

 

I like what you did with this chapter.

I had little problem with the nuhuh version, but I got to agree with data on the whole being able to alter meciel thing. if it was that easy to do, you'd think the knights of the cross or someone would be doing that more often, hiring out wizards like dumbledore to perform the ritual on captured denarians.

but I guess thats why you wrote that line about it being taboo to mess with the divine.

But I disagree with Data on one thing. I think meciel does have free will.

I mean she chose to side against god, didn't she.

If anything, I'd guess that she'd mock the arrogance of humanity to believe that they were so blessed.

I mean if she didn't then that means that God made meciel for the sole purpose of siding against him, apparently for kicks.

Alot of things about christianty confuse me, but I don't think the Big G is that bored.

 

Actually, this was one of the other things I had a problem with as far as things go; I mean, if a Saint could make someone a loup-garou (which is one bad ass curse), then I'm pretty sure they're at the very least as powerful as Dumbledore, and therefore should have been able to affect the coins if he could. Certainly Saint's wouldn't have an issue of using the Divine, because that is likely where they get their power from.

On the other hand, I think, perhaps, if Dumbledore is given time to prepare and research the whole spell (it seemed rushed to have him do it the same day he thought of it, which isn't very Dumbledore-like, as far as I'm concerned), then Nuhuh's omake will be very much easier to swallow.

 

I prefer the version you've went back to personally, since it fits the storyline better (in my mind) and flows on better from where the last chapter ended. Not to say that I don't enjoy the omake, but when you just decided to use it instantly instead it really didn't look right. Like you were playing a song and hit a wrong chord half way through.

If you took the time to integrate it, foreshadow it a bit more (even a couple of chapters would do) then use it as a minor climax it would have been great. Instead it just seems like it popped into your head and you decided then and there to insert it. Props to nuhuh though, it is a great omake.

On the free will aspect, I'd actually tend towards Datakim's idea more than the whole 'Dumbledore is so Great he can enslave fallen angels on a whim'. Though I'm sure you can integrate it well enough that I'll enjoy it no matter what happens .

Aekiel

 

Overpowered Dumbledore issue:

I wasn't going to say anything about this because Shezza knew what was going on the omake, but since it seems it came off wrong I'll mention it once here.

Dumbledore invoked divine powers, and messed with them to make this happen. This is not something easy, and not something without consequences.

That is why no one else in history tried it.

Essentially no one before decided that they would fuck with God over this. Dumbledore does anyway.

The second scene of this OMAKE that you haven't seen, is where it is revealed how much trouble Dumbledore is in.

By no means did he manage this under just his own power.

Beyond that fire away.

Oh and this wasn't a Lilciel. Not in this omake and not in what Shezza plans to do.

Edit: Though that is all besides the point. An omake is an omake.

 

Ahh, that explains it then. I was going to mention the invoking Divine powers in my last review, but it kinda slipped my mind as I was writing XD.

Just one question though, where does wand-magic come from? Is it from the Outside, or from a different plane altogether?

Aekiel

 

This is actually something that I agree with you. If you read my admittely longish posts you will find that I mentioned this (or atleast I think I did?

However it may be very important for Shezzas story that Meciel does not have full free will now and that she must merge with Lily. Thats why I thought the idea of having Meciel do the merging instead of Dumbledore. I am not a mind-reader so I cannot say if others think it would be better. I can only speak of what I think and in my view it would feel better if we did not have Dumbledore forcibly altering Meciels character. Most of my problems (Dumbledore messing with the kind of power he should not, Meciel being diminshed, etc) stem from this fact.

As such I figured that having Meciel be responsible for the merging would "minimise" the problems that I had without altering the core purpose of the chapter (Meciel gaining freewill/ability to love from Lily). This would also allow a believable future cooperation between Harry and Dumbledore whereas if it was Dumbledore who forcibly violated Meciels very being then It would be difficult to believe that she would not use her influence to turn Harry totally against Dumbledore.

Ultimately its just a random thought that I threw up for Shezza to see. Dunno what the others who had problems with this think though? And in the end its Shezza who decides whats going to happen(as it should be).

PS. Hope I did not offend you with my complaints Nuhuh. You rule

EDIT:
Just saw your message Nuhuh.

The divine power thing might partly explain where Dumbledore got the power but it still does not explain why he never used this power against Voldemort? I mean if he is willing to pay the consequences here to prevent the mere _possibility_ of Harry falling then why would he not have been prepared to pay when Voldemort was at his strongest and most terrifying? We know that Voldemort cannot stand against the divine (the sword defeats his strongest spells).

Also your explanation why it was never done before does not really work. I am sure there are religious wizards out there who would be more than ready to draw upon the divine to destroy the coins of the fallen permanently if it were possible. Even if that would result in their personal annihilation. There are always people ready to throw their lives away for what they see as the greater good. Even among wizards.

It also does not change the fact that it _FEELS_ like "Lilciel" and impressions like that are important. It just feels wrong to have Dumbledore "reprogram" Meciel as if she were just a computer for Dumbledore to do with as he desires. No matter what the consequences might be for Dumbledore personally, he still does it and that just feels so very very wrong to me.

Sorry about trying to find all the smallest holes in your omake. I suppose I am just a natural born nitpicker or something.

 

I think there's the prophecy (though there were only very vague mentions and maybe there isn't one in DK) and that might explain why he wasn't willing to pay the consequences because in the end Voldemort would still be alive. Harry must be the one to kill him after all.

 

Unless I am mistaken, Voldemorts reign of terror was ongoing quite a while before Dumbledore heard the prophecy? Why did Dumbledore not take Voldemort out with this divine power at his disposal BEFORE Trelawney ever made his prophecy.

Infact a quick check at HP lexicon suggests that the "war" against Voldemort was ongoing for nearly a decade before Dumbledore ever heard the prophecy. Plenty of time for Dumbledore to decide to save hundreds(maybe even thousands?) of lives by taking Voldemort out with this divine powersource.