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The Final, Ultimate, Do-or-Die Severus Snape Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Skeletaure, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    There is an ongoing dispute between several members of this forum (including me) about the competence of Severus Snape.

    Let us be clear: this thread is not about Snape's character. I think it's fair to say that we all pretty much hate the man. No, this thread is about his abilities alone: is he a good wizard, or not?

    Personally, I think that after Dumbledore's death Snape was most likely the most powerful wizard in Britain, second only to Voldemort. Let's examine the reasons I feel this:

    1. He is highly skilled in all areas of magic.

    He is the best Potions brewer we know of, able to instinctively adjust recipes to achieve a better result. He has great knowledge of the Dark Arts. He is skilled at Charms, as he is able to perform the Flying spell, which is presumably complex since it took many centuries to discover. He is also good with the Confundus charm it appears. He is able to silently transfigure fire into a snake in a high pace duel, and vanish whole cauldrons of Potions (if you remember the OWLS, most had trouble vanishing a small mammal) indicating a good skill at Transfiguration.

    2. He has the most powerful mind in the wizarding world.

    He is able to deceive Voldemort, whose skill at Legilimency is said to be the greatest of any wizard in history. He has a very strong grasp of non-verbal magic. He is at the least a passable Legilimens, but most likely more, judging by his skill at Occlumency.

    3. He has a deeper understanding of magic than the practical.

    He has invented spells, and is able to understand how Potions work so well that he can adjust them to produce better effects. This indicates he has a deeper knowledge of how magic works than just knowing the spells - he is good on the theory too.

    4. He is a very good dueler.

    We've seen Harry duel a great many people. No-one has beat him as soundly as Snape did at the end of HBP.

    5. He is Voldemort's second in command.

    Voldemort values ability and blood. Snape is very high up in the Death Eaters (Voldemort told him of The Plan in HBP) and is a Half-Blood, so must get by on ability alone, so his ability must be high. As of DH, he is Voldemort's second in command (he sits at Voldemort's right hand, Voldemort teaches him spells) and so the most powerful Death Eater.

    6. He is at least McGonagall's equal in a duel, if not better.

    In DH he was only forced to flee due to the arrival of 3 other teachers. Before that, he was equaling her, and would most likely have won due to his knowledge of the Dark Arts, and the fact that even when the other teachers arrived he was able to escape. McGonagall is one of the most powerful witches in Britain.

    7. He is creative.

    JKR has placed great store by creativeness. All of the most powerful wizards in the series are creative: Dumbledore did thinks Marshbanks had never seen before in his NEWTs (and all through school), Voldemort came up with the flying spell and the idea of multiple horcruxes, the Marauders made the Marauder's map and figured out how to become animagi.

    Snape is also creative - he created spells, and is able to change and adapt potions on the fly - which puts him up there with the others.

    P.S. I probably won't reply to this thread 'til tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  2. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    I don't remember any of the students having to polish a trophy dedicated to Severus Snape. His accomplishments might not have been the sort of things that win awards. Or perhaps school policy bans displaying awards won by staff.

    He was *correcting* his sixth year textbooks and creating spells - that implies smart and creative.

    He didn't figure out Draco's plan to kill Dumbledore, despite living in the same building and having what Should Be strong skills in subtle interrogation. Even if he couldn't break Draco's Occlumency barriers, Snape should have been able to glean information from Crabbe and Goyle.

    He managed to convince Dumbledore to never interfere in Snape's grossly unfair discipline practices.

    He figured out that Quirrell was up to something Voldemort-related Early in Harry's first year - long before anyone else did.

    According to canon, he loved Lily for nearly his entire life. A steadfast heart is not to be scorned.

    Not a single one of his senior Slytherin students stayed to defend the school. He doesn't appear to have guided them towards Light.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  3. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    We've only been told of one award before (Tom Riddle's), and that was plot related. There's a whole trophy room of unnamed trophies in there. Saying Snape wasn't able to get an award when Riddle was able to doesn't act as an argument against his skill, since I mentioned in my post that Riddle (or Voldemort) was a better wizard than Snape.

    I do doubt that Snape has an award though, since they seem to be awarded only to the popular, charismatic students (Riddle's award was for services to the school, not his spectacular magical abilities).

    To be fair, neither did Dumbledore. So all this really says that Snape wasn't able to do something that Dumbledore wasn't able to do either. And I don't think Malfoy told C&G what he was doing - he just made them stand watch outside.

    The Senior Slytherins do defend the school in DH. They just do it the Slytherin way - they left and came back with reinforcements. If you remember, after Voldemort burned Neville, Slughorn - who was leading the Slytherins - comes back with an army behind him.
     
  4. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    Harry found his father's award for Transfiguration.

    And let's face it, if Snape had had an award out where hundreds of non-Sly students could get hold of it, it would have suffered a horribe and humiliating fate.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2008
  5. Lyndon Eye

    Lyndon Eye Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Yes, but Harry was probably looking for it.

    There isn't enough information in canon to discern whether or not Snape received any awards.

    Although I would imagine that if James Potter got an award for transfiguration, then Snape would definately have received one for potions. After all, he is widely regarded by all of the characters as the most talented potions master in the field.
     
  6. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    It's interesting that Snape was such a good combat mage, considering his stated opinion on "foolish wand-waving." It speaks to the inherit complexity of his character, and the clear-eyed (if grim) way he viewed the world.

    As I see it, he *loved* Potions, but even as a teen, he was pragmatic enough to make sure he was excellent with a wand.

    As a rising star in potions, his house-mates would have been increasingly wary of young Snape. Considering the possibilities - think about what the Weasley twins would do with potions, and they were simply mischievous, NOT Dark. Being good with spells is probably simply a matter of survival in Slytherin house. Being *superb* at wand-work implies a great deal of self-discipline, and even a wish to never be defenseless.

    So... why didn't he become an animagus?
     
  7. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Why would he become an animagus?
     
  8. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    It's cool, and it's likely to be useful. Statistically, of the five Animagi that we know, four could make themselves unnoticeable. Who actually SEES a random stray dog or cat? Beetles can hide anywhere, and rats are all over the place. The fifth, James's stag, would be good for fast escapes. I can see Severus as something fairly small, FAST, and not high-visibility. Actually, a black snake would be perfect (staying away from the idea of a venomous snake, which seems cliche, somehow. ARE there any deadly-venomous snakes that are both small and unobtrusive?)

    It isn't as if the idea never occured to Snape - Minerva Makes Sure that all incoming students actually see her change.
     
  9. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That's reason enough for any wizard to be an animagus, and yet most aren't. What reason specific to Snape would there be to motivate him specifically to be an animagus, above the general coolness of being able to do it?
     
  10. Nefar

    Nefar Seventh Year

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    Well, none, really. What's generally touted as great about the animagus form is the concealment it offers to a wizard. But really, a 'Notice-me-not' charm, invisibility charm/cloak, silenced body, would do the same thing, without the need to learn what is presumably a difficult discipline. Of course Pheonix animaguses can 'flash-fire' anywhere, and other magical creatures have other benefits, but this is strictly fanon-only; no non-natural creature have been observed as animaguses in canon.

    Make themselves unnoticable - see above. I certainly see stray dogs/cats (because of my sister; 'Aww, how cute!'). I'd certainly notice a beetle in my house, and even more a rat - remember, most often secret meetings will not be held in the dark rat-infested criminal underbelly of London. An animagus for fast escapes? Have you heard of Apparation? Anti-apparation wards/fields? Not to worry, Snape can fly!

    And any story with a Slytherin- and/or Harry-with-a-snake-animagus deserves to be shot for the sheer cliche-edness.

    Snape might have gotten an award, but we just don't know. As has been said, we've seen exactly two - one directly related to Harry, one plot-driven. Not enough to go on.

    We're not debating his character, are we?

    I don't think that we were given any canon character more talented than Snape other than Dumbledore and Voldemort.
     
  11. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    The Animagus charm can be done without a wand. It gives one an option if captured...
     
  12. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Transfiguration*

    And that's just another general reason why being an animagus is a good idea. It applies equally to all wizards, not just Snape.

    The reasons you're giving are reasons for any wizard to become an animagus, but most aren't. Why would Snape chose to be one, other than the general reasons that apply also to those hundreds of other wizards that also aren't animagi?
     
  13. Dark Syaoran

    Dark Syaoran No. 4 Admin

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    It's possible that some people can't become animagi and that is one reason why there aren't many of them around.

    But I don't even know if that can even apply. What are the chances that Peter, James and Sirius all somehow have the rare ability to become animagi while happening to be best friends? A fucking miracle.

    It could be useful as a spy, depending on what form you take. Rita Skeeter is an example. But that begs the question...

    Why would Rita Skeeter try become an animagi unless she knew her form would benefit her, Taure? She didn't have a werewolf to keep company, so... [​IMG]

    We go in circles.

    I also agree that Snape would probably use other means of sneaking, like 'notice-me-not' charms and disillusioment charms instead of learning the transformation.
     
  14. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Or slipping truth potion into someone's food, or just using Legilimency on them.

    But yeah, Snape probably had the capability to be an animagus, but not the motivation.

    We don't really know much about her, but it's possible she simply has an interest in Transfiguration.

    All this is beside the point though. Whether or not Snape is an animagus doesn't really have much to do with him being a powerful wizard.

    As far as we know, Dumbledore himself wasn't an animagus.
     
  15. Bratling

    Bratling Professor

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    I think it's just a hell of a lot of work to become an animagus, and it's probably dangerous, too. That's probably why most wizards don't really try. :D Me, I think it'd be a really cool talent to have!
     
  16. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    Perhaps becoming an animagus just takes too much time? James, etc., had several years of time in which they were able to keep each other motivated and were relatively undistracted. Schoolwork aside, there would be at least an hour every day during the school year in which the boys-in-the-Gryff-tower would be able to practice. Moreover, James was relatively wealthy. He could afford specialized books and whatever material components were necessary for research.

    Snape, on the other hand, would have been trying to do it by himself, while going for top grades in Potions, defending himself against pure bloods in the dungeon, recuperating from whatever nastiness Sirius thought would be fun today, and yearning over Lily. And probably practice-practice-practicing duelling with wands.

    I firmly believe that whatever factors limited Snape's achievements, intelligence and skill (or magical power) are not among them. He played politics among the Inner Circle of the Death Eaters - where a mistake would get him a knife in the back If He Were Lucky. If Voldemort had Ever Suspected that Snape was a spy, Severus's death would have taken DAYS.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2008
  17. hchan1

    hchan1 Sixth Year

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    It's in the light of these qualities that makes Snape's utterly trivial death even more of a copout. The man's been spying on Voldemort for so long it's practically a career to him-- surely he had a contingency plan for a crisis that didn't involve standing there and dying?

    And I've never seen becoming an animagus as something particularly hard to do, just time-consuming. If three teenage friends, one of whom is notable only for his mediocrity, can do it without a hitch, most wizards should be able to.
     
  18. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Snape's death was deliberately written as ignoble I believe, in order to leave the reader bitter as to his fate.

    And as for him just standing there - he was still playing the role of servant, right up to his death. He didn't realise he was going to be killed until it was already too late.
     
  19. Banner

    Banner Dark Lady

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    It's just ... well... wouldn't a Potions Master have made sure that he had anti-venin on him at all times? If it couldn't be stored on the body, surely Snape, of all people, would have kept a bezoar in a pocket? Or a portkey, for when everything went all pear-shaped? Nagini's poison (right into the throat, remember) took several minutes, at least, to kill him. JKR actually did a character assassination on Snape to allow him to die in such a way that made him look incompetent.

    No one will ever convince me that Snape was anything less than supremely competent as Potions Master and Spy.
     
  20. silverlasso

    silverlasso Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    You have a point. Snape, a Dark Wizard/Death Eater and Potions Master whose loyalties could be discovered at any time would be sure to have some sort of protective measure in case of attack or temporary disability. But the truth is, no matter what anti-venom he had, it wouldn't have worked against Nagini's Jesus-venom derived from that of a Basilisk by Voldemort himself. *rolls eyes* Truthfully, if he didn't die, the plot would be awkward.

    ---

    I see becoming an animagus something that is either circumstantial or the culmination of one's studies in Transfiguration. The Marauders only did it for Remus, Minerva in pursuit of the Art, most likely, and Rita...well, going there would offend everyone (substitute for some variation along the lines of 'I don't know why she would attempt it in the first place').

    Especially for Muggleborns, the possibility of becoming an animagus would be quite a feat to dream of, and thus I think mastering the transformation would be a task both complex and very long. (As a side-note on fanon: Harry finding Animagus transformation books in Flourish and Blotts is total BS. It's a rarely done art; why would one find books on it there?)
     
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