That's what I'm saying. People give no account to ruthless governments and human envy.

 

Quite simple, as I'm uniquely suited to answer that. Brains. No gang is complete without intelligence. The only reason I lived through my initiation into New York's gang scene is because I was small. I could go places the big guys couldn't. I heard things they didn't. Nobody pays a skinny homeless kid much attention.

 

The likelihood of a 10 year old being able to out think an older teenager is not particularly great. And quite frankly, being small and able to get into places big guys couldn't isn't going to make you a highly valued member. It'll make you the person that gets told to go get something from somewhere without being given any more information than you need.

 

While this has turned into an interesting argument of the AMERICAN gang scheme in the UK magical world, and drinking between ten year olds and sixteen year olds, the story plot sucks.

Magic was made for a reason, for magical people to use. No one should turn some magic wielding Harry into a "stay away from me so I can shoot you and forget about my unblockable killing curse" idiot.

And I agree with all of Taure's arguments.

 

You also can do the fucking summoning charm, and the gun come out of the hand

 

Longinus: I understand if English isn't your first language (hell, it isn't mine) but poor Friedrich would be rolling in his grave if he could read your sig

Also:

This thread is over. Move along, nothing to see here.

 

Well, that's debatable. I can think of instances where a gun could be better than a Killing Curse, and vice versa. We really shouldn't compare apples and oranges, because Muggle tech can do things than magic can't (Try shipping an assault team across the channel on one broom, as opposed to those nice UH-60s, or killing someone from an enormus distance sans a neat rifle) and magic can do things tech can't even try. It's better to keep your options open.

C'mon, don't kiss ass because Taure's a senior member. I don't agree with his Muggle v. Wizard ideas, and he sure as hell doesn't agree with mine. Take a fucking stand on something you say, and be your own person.

 

But why be your own person when we can just let Taure do all our own thinking for you? In fact we will make a church of Taure where his perfect ideals on the Magic vs Muggle will be given the respect they deserve.

 

I've always assumed that Dragon Pox was a disease that only affected wizards because it harmed their magic somehow- or because it is magical by nature, not viral. Magic has no rational, quantifiable form, and muggles have no way of tampering with it. Therefore, I feel pretty safe in the knowledge that they couldn't 'genetically engineer' the dragon pox virus- if it even is a virus.

I could get into so many things that could counteract all muggle resistance. Imperius Curses on the leaders of the muggle countries before the wizards ever attacked would stop much of the interference from other countries. The unplottable ward which could, theoretically, be placed on all of the British Isles, would leave the muggles unable to direct a bomb using their computers thanks to the fact that they couldn't even find it on a map.

And that is just to stop the massive bombing attacks. The physical troops would be utterly decimated. Apparation, disillusionment charms, dementors, and killing curses would leave a muggle army, no matter the size, utterly helpless. When you can neither see nor find even one of your enemies, and they have the ability to destroy your morale and kill no matter what the defense, you have no chance.

Also, the threat of torturing muggle politicians' families- who could be captured with a quick apparation, a few stunners, and a portkey- would leave few willing to fight. And those that would still fight back could be killed with a pop of apparation and two quick words.

I didn't mean to get back into this Wizard v. Muggle discussion, but the rational can never compare to the irrational. What is magical and infinite will always be able to overcome what is chained in the laws of physics. It is as simple as that.

EDIT: Taure and I disagree on a lot of things, but this is one of the exceptions. Magic is INFINITE. Technology is NOT. The end.

 

We don't know the specifics of the Dragon Pox virus, only that it happens to target wizards. For all we know, that virus is not unlike the Chicken Pox, only it targets people with a specific gene in their DNA. It's certainly not that big of a stretch of the imagination that the Muggles could find out about, isolate, study and reproduce that virus with some help from unlucky muggleborns.

How are you going to cast the Imperius on a person you can't get close to? Once the declaration of "war" against Wizardkind is made, hide political figures.

Oh, and that Unplottable Ward thing is stupid. Do you honestly think that any wizard (or group of wizards) is sufficiently skilled to create an unplottable ward that covers an entire country? I doubt even Dumbledore is that good.

I can accept Dementors, and even Apparation, but the other things can be dealt with via muggle means. Before I get into that, though, do you honestly think they can train an army large enough to face a muggle one that is skilled enough to apparate at the drop of a hat without splinching themselves?

For that matter, the ministry controls Dementors. It wouldn't be too difficult to use a muggleborn to get into the ministry, find out how they control Dementors and eliminate it. Ruthless government methods - and searching ability - makes utilizing muggleborn students completely plausible.

Now then! Killing curse - use physical shields. There may be no magical defense against the killing curse, but there certainly are physical ones, as Order of the Phoenix has clearly shown.

Disillusionment charms - they make you invisible. How invisible do they make you? Does it just make you blend in with your surroundings ala the chameleon? Or does it completely hide you, heat and all? The way I see it, this can be overrode by infrared goggles.

You can't capture and torture someone you can't find.

And that is why no one will ever convince you, regardless of their arguments. That is why arguing something like this is like arguing why religion is stupid. Simply put, even though people can disprove your arguments, you'll just ignore it with the thought process "lolmagic."

 

I agree with this, but only because I disagree with Rowling's assertion that muggles can't brew potions. Dragon pox is magical in nature, and anything "muggle made" that could replicate it and be used as a weapon would have to be based in magic or magical items, i.e. a potion.

Using magic means you don't have to necessarily be close to your target. For example, why not use the Imperius curse on the people hired to hide/protect political figures?

Of course not. But wizards don't need to hide whole countries, just relevant areas that they don't want muggles searching or bombing.

I don't know if I understood what you were trying to say here, but if you were saying that wizards can't train an army to apparate at the drop of a hate, then I disagree. Hermione, an admittedly bright but still underqualified witch, was able to apparate Ron and Harry out of danger, in mid air. Any group of people who spend time rigorously training to have particular skills will avoid mistakes more often than not.

True, but you're still, in a way, fighting with magic.

Muggles can't Summon shit. Yes, wizards are portrayed as fairly lazy (in canon at least), and your average muggle soldier will outrun/out dodge a trained wizard, but the chances of out lasting all that spell casting are slim to none. A trained wizard might use the physical shield against you anyways - surely you know what shrapnel is.

That's a fair point, but think about spell casting. There's canon proof that some spells generate heat, so with a bunch of spells flying around, your goggles are useless. And if a wizard is even halfway decently trained, they'll just Summon them.

Muggles can't repel messenger owls. I'd send a message with an owl saying "Gotcha, bitch!", follow the owl with my broom, and get to work. And again, if you use a muggleborn to cast said wards, you're still passively fighting with magic.

Your arguments are fair,and you're more than allowed to ignore our arguments in favor of writing your story - or reading someone else's story - that favors muggle tech over magic. I'm really just playing devil's advocate at this point, because this thread has turned into magic v. muggle discussion, which apparently has already popped up in other places.

Think of this, though: think about how you've grown up, and what you know about the world, and then someone tells you that you can perform magic. You go to a magical school, learn the craft etc etc, and combine that with your knowledge of the muggle world. Now answer this - in a fight between you (the wizard) and a muggle, who would win ? In a fight between you and 20 armed muggles, how would you win and why? And would you use more magical methods, or muggle methods?

 

We also know that the cure has been discovered so the point is moot.

The same way that the Trace is applied to a whole country. The same way that a taboo can cover a whole country. We've seen instances where magic with a massive area of effect has occurred.

You're thinking to literal. Wizards don't need to train an army to fight a Muggle army. They just have to place sleeping potion in the Muggles water supply and send the army into an enchanted sleep, or any other number of covert attacks.

Unfortunately for the Muggles, they do not possess the ability to conjure these physical shields like the wizards do. Where are they going to come from? If they're pre-placed, a wizard can just apparate around it. Also, the wizard could just vanish it or transfigure it.

The question of how able the Muggles could hide their political figures is up in the air. There are several examples of tracking magic in canon, though no direct "person finding" spell has been observed. Even without this, legilimency on subordinates could be used to discover the location of the political figure.

And even if all of the wizarding locations in Britain were bombed, it wouldn't have much effect. Unlike the Muggles, the wizards' power is in people, not infrastructure.

That's pretty clever.

 

Or just make the letter a portkey...

As for taking out an army, simply find something that everyone is going to touch at some point in time, like for instance ammunition, and make every box a portkey to the middle of the ocean. Or why not bring out the dragons. You may argue that a missile or aircraft could take out a dragon, personally I don't think the dragon would be particularly damaged. Or send in the giants, portkey them to the middle of the armies encampment. They would probably end up dead, but they would still cause massive damage.

Cause more problems for the army by apparating into where the tanks and heavy machinery are kept and conjure a shit load of water to soften the ground so that they sink in.

Cause major havoc by adding veritaserum to a politicians drink just before a news conference.

There are so many things magic can do that technology either can't do, or could only do at extreme cost and with extreme difficulty. Yes, sodium pentathol or whatever it is could be used, or a shit load of water could be dumped on and around the tanks via place or helicopter, but it would be costly in both man power and money whereas it would only take one wizard using a spell that Harry could cast in his 6th year (to me that means that with practice a half decent wizard could do it in their 4th year at least)

 

I think Taure said it pretty well, but I will reply anyways.

I always hate the muggle-side argument of 'ZOMG we will target the magical DNA!' What magical DNA? How do you plan to target it?

I specifically said that they would get the leaders before anyone even knew the wizarding world existed... Also, as I said, a apparation/stunner/portkey mix would nab the politician in five seconds. And you must, as others said, take legilimancy into account.

Taure said this better than I would have been able to.

Why would they need to apparate at the drop of a hat. They have the dementors fly in, and every one begins to panic. They then throw in the occasional killing curse at any pockets of real resistance.

Even without dementors, thirty elite wizards could easily use an imperius on thirty muggles and have them blow themselves, and a bunch of other guys, up. Then, with everything in complete disorder, they simply apparate around, throwing out killing curses and imperius curses. The muggles wouldn't know who to trust and they wouldn't know where the enemy was. It would be just as bad as the dementors.

They control dementors by promising them the souls of prisoners. How many souls do millions of helpless muggles have?

 

This is going to be backwards, I guess, with HBP's post coming first, Taure's last. Oh well...

However Dragon Pox targets it. They aren't developing a new virus, just replicating an old one.

So what you're saying is, you're going to have the Wizards attack the muggles before there's a reason to do so?

If they don't, they'll die from getting shot?

Again, I didn't really have much to go on about defending against Dementors. I just suggested a possible solution based on the fact that I don't know how the hell they control the soul-sucking monsters.

That's why formations and covering is considered pretty damn crucial to war. Would a muggle army today still use the age-old tactic of walking in a line into an open field? Or would they use formations, strategy, attacking before the wizards have any idea they're there? Certainly, the wizards could do the same to them, but you really shouldn't count that out as an option, especially considering how many muggles there are.

Proof please.

Ah, but that's where things become fun. The curse gets thrown, and what happens? The wizard gets distracted long enough to get shot. The muggle may die in the process, or perhaps just get wounded enough to get pulled out of combat for a while. Can the same be said of the wizard that just got shot?

They could, but that could still take quite a while. We really don't know all that much of the process that goes into spellcrafting.

Unfortunately, family and friends will be hidden too, so that doesn't work. On the subject of the imperius, from what we've seen sufficient strength of will can ignore the curse. Drill it into the person's mind that they are never to even so much as think about the location of the hidden person, and the imperius will be useless. Ligilimency...well, first, I have no idea how much control over what a person sees can be found when a person is doing his best to block off that section of his mind until necessary. Who knows, maybe Occlumency is something muggles can do? We really don't know nearly enough about Occlumency to say one way or the other.

Kill all owls near the area in question on sight.

How are the wizards going to get their hands on the ammunition ahead of time to make it a portkey? The muggles are going to be making it and bringing it to each other personally, so there's no opportunity to get their hands on it without the summoning charm. Even then, the casting of the charm would be distraction enough for the wizard to get shot.

Dragons - you're damn right that aircraft could take out a dragon. They may have thick skin, but that's nothing compared to armor piercing rounds and missiles.

Giants - a fair strategy to be sure, but one that would only be effective for so long. Soon enough, the muggles are always on guard, and have multiple people with weapons using armor-piercing rounds awake during the night to kill the Giant before it does much - if any - damage.

Again, have people on guard kill anyone that just appears. Chances are, after the first couple tries, that strategy just won't work anymore.

Have stand-ins appear with scripts, keeping the actual politicians hidden. For that matter, keep all unauthorized personnel away from the news conference by not telling anyone where it is.

Wizards have tanks now?

Then the muggles will use a different disease.

We don't know enough about how the trace is applied, or how the taboo is applied. For that matter, Voldemort may have cast the taboo himself, something that maybe only someone exceptional - Voldemort - can cast. So that leaves...two people we know of capable of casting the curse on the word "Voldemort."

...After Deathly Hallows, both of them are dead.

Sure! The muggles can do the same thing. Use a poison instead of a potion, to give the wizards all some horrible disease that will kill them in their sleep. Muggles are perfectly capable of using numerous covert attacks.

The muggles bring them along with them. It's not pre-placed, it's on the muggle himself. When the wizard destroys/transfigures it, the muggle kills the wizard because the wizard is distracted.

Keep the subordinates hidden, too. Before you ask about how the politician gets food, use a system of subordinates. That is to say, have one person go grocery shopping that has no idea where the political figure is hiding, and give it to someone who does in a regular location, under the premise of "shopping for a friend," something people do all the time.

I didn't bring up the bombing example, I just explained why their methods of making something like that difficult/impossible was invalid. I, personally, fall under the belief that no government would bomb their country without no other solutions, so the bombing is really a non-issue from my standpoint.


EDIT: I suppose I should mention that really, I think this argument is stupid. I'm only going along with it for two reasons:

1) It's fun.
2) I think the "lolmagic" arguments that get brought up sometimes are just fucking retarded, and by extension feel a distinct desire to explain why they're retarded.

 

I don't know about you guys but screw magic. I don't think magic is worth it if you can't use your ipod or t.v. Besides, all the magical people have to do is impero the president and your in control of the world. easy as that...i'll shut up now.

 

Pretty much ends the argument here. Summon the gun, it breaks the guy's finger, the end.

Shielding works, but it cannot work forever. Unless the shield has limitless protection capacity – but even then, you're going to get shot eventually.

There's no way you could cast a shield quick enough either. You see the gun, and perhaps, if you're used to fighting with people who use guns, you can react, but seeing a gun and being a muggleborn will probably make you freeze up and if you're wizard-born, then seeing the gun will probably make you cock your head in confusion.

Muggle interference is a tired plot idea. Guns, yeah, wow, cool. Martial arts, yeah, wow, cool. Nuclear weaponry, yeah, wow, cool. Government conspiracies, yeah, wow, cool. What does this have anything to do with Harry? Little. If Harry's fighting muggles, then there better be a good reason, if the story is centered on wizard society, then who cares about those ignorant fucks? I certainly don't.

 

This is one of the more common arguments out there...also, one of the most stupid. If this would work, why the hell does Expelliarmus even exist? You could just summon the wand out of their hand, couldn't you?

The fact is, expelliarmus exists because you can't do that. But then, if you can't do that, you also can't summon a gun out of their hand.

 

I can see a problem with your reasoning here. The existence of Expelliarmus does not mean a wizard can't summon a gun out of someone's hand, just that someone thought it would be easier to create a spell just for that effect. It makes sense - in combat, would you want to spend longer on a Summoning Charm, or a faster Disarming Spell?

That said, why would a wizard want to summon a gun away from someone? Wouldn't he/she be more likely to only want to kill the person?

Demon_Vigilante, throughout your entire posts you have ignored one of Taure's arguements:

Your posts that ignore this, just in your last reply:

If you can spot a flaw in the logic, and hence, the conclusion, of his arguement, please point it out.

This is a valid point. It might help to define a general outline of events.

I agree. We have no idea how Dementor's are controlled.

Unfortunately, both Imperius and Legilimancy are mental intrusions powered by magic. It's not certain, but certainly the most reasonable scenario is that a Muggle just doesn't have the magic to even begin to fight it, strong will or not.

I don't agree with you about alot of things, but this is a huge exeption. Arguing that Dragons/Giants will in any way threaten the Muggles for long is as stupid as the Jedi jumping down into the arena in Episode 2. Large, slow-moving targets are what Muggles excel at destroying - wizards using these would be playing to the Muggles strengths.

Ignores the Imperturbable Charm problem, and a few guards would not stop a single wizard from apparating in and casting one of those large-scale destructive spells like the one in DH (can't remember the name, but even Goyle could cast it).

Mutual confusion.

Please name/provide evidence for this disease, and provide evidence it has not been rendered as harmless as Dragon Pox.

So you think that every time the Ministry want's some large-scale ward/whatever done, they have to go begging to Dumbledore? That must be why Fudge-era Ministry was incompetent - they were too proud!

And astute observation about them both being dead. I guess the Ministry is stuck with small-level spells now.

Ignoring the potential of 'finding spells,' all this does is ensure it'll take a bit longer to find the leaders.

Plus, they can't be cut off totally, otherwise they wouldn't be leaders and the wizards would just go for the ones in charge.

1) True.
2) :Looks around: I haven't seen any 'lolmagic' arguements here? Have you?

 

What about the electrical activity in people's brains and heart?...