that's why i said theoretically and given enough magical power, it could be accomplished. i'm not aware of any canonical limitations to the "Accio" spell.

 

Well I have to disagree. There is no such thing as Magical power, rather it is Magical Skill. While Wizards have a sort of connection to this magic-which you can consider a form of energy that wizards are able to manipulate,- they don't have Magical power. It depends on the skill of the person casting the spell.

There are limitations to the Accio spell, because there are limitations to the skill of the Wizard. So while yes, theoretically with enough skill one can summon anything one wants. A human won't be able to do it, as humans aren't perfect.

Furthermore, you have the whole concept of innate magical resistance to consider. Where every single Witch and Wizard has a form of resistance to spells targeted inside their body. Or more specifically, where their connection with the magic itself lies.

 

This theory only makes sense if you subscribe to the theory of magical cores and power levels. Even then, it's not realistic. If Dumbledore and Voldemort, the supposed two most 'powerful' wizards in the world, aren't able to use the summoning spell in this manner, then nobody can. Magic isn't a number that you can assign to someone and then say "oh, if X used Y amount of power, then they could make Z spell function in this manner", which seems to me is what you are arguing.

As to canonical limitations, you only need to look at the absence of accio used in the manner you are describing for evidence. If Accio could indeed be used in that manner (or any other uses that is has in fanon), then someone would have done it in canon. There is no plot hole here. You could also make this argument for the Vanishing spell. Well why doesn't Harry simply vanish Voldemort if all it takes is X amount of magical power (and vice versa)? Because spells and magic in general doesn't work like that.

Go read Taure's magical theory thread.

 

my fault. i meant to write "magical power/skill".

and said resistance can be overcome. if we assume magical resistance is proportional to magical skill, then the greater skill you have, the more magical resistant you are. so what's stopping Voldie or Dumbledore from using Accio or the Vanishing Spell on a Muggle who has relatively no magic?

or they haven't found a way to make it work like that. after all, we were discussing the lack of advancement in any magical field a few post ago.

i did a while back. i found it highly interesting and sensible.

 

This is just another variation of the "Why are wizards poor?"-question, but why are there no recreational activities in the wizarding world? They play chess and cards for gods sake! They don't even use magic to have fun, aside from a few snowball fights.
I don't remember in which fanfic I read that, but they had these adventure-cubes that work basically like a Holodeck from Star Trek, with pre-scripted action. That's the kind of thing 'real' people would have developed instead of animated chess pieces.

Even when I was younger with just the first 3 books out, I wondered if all magical people were mentally unstable because of the magic. Think about it: Is there one 'normal' character in the books?
Magic just fucks up their brains and we can explain almost all these plot holes away.

 

Technically magical resistance can be overcome, but as it has never been featured in Canon, we can conclude it is very difficult to do so. Indeed as the bodies connection to magic will wholly resist the spell, it will continue to do so until the connection is completely stripped away(you become a squib) or you die.

The connection to the magic is powerful enough to support the millions of spells that the Witch or Wizard uses in his lifetime. So you would need a very powerful spell to strip away one's magic.

The spell you perform will have to be more powerful than the connection in one's body. The same connection that supports the millions of spells one uses through it.

So the spell would have to be millions of times more powerful than an ordinary spell at least. That would take enormous amount of magical skill to accomplish, which obviously no one has.

Err... are you thinking of House elves? I don't know what you mean when you say there are no "normal" people in the magical world. They seem as normal as can be to me.

Just look at Hogwarts; the students seem to be pretty normal. You can compare them to the students at any normal school. True they don't act like any regular teenager out there. I mean no drugs, no sex, and their method of how they have fun is way different then how any normal teenager would act. But we can attribute this to JK's reluctance to potray them as such, as this is a children's book after all.

We don't really know what they do for fun though. They hang out with each other, play Quidditch, attend matches of Quidditch, and talk about Quidditch! Besides that I can't think of anything else, but that's what we have Fanon for.

 

i have a question about your definition of magical resistance. Most of the magical resistance we've seen in canon mainly result from conscious thought, i.e. Harry and the Imperious. where, in the books, does your "innate magical resistance" come from?

i equate magical resistance to the resistance found in splitting an atom. so, it can be overcome, a method to do so just has not been discovered yet.

what about the Elder Wand? it's capable of doing feats no one thought possible, such as fixing Harry's main wand.

 

I will admit it doesn't say it anywhere in the book. However the Imperious curse doen't do any physical damage to your body. We have no evidence in Canon that states that it harms the person. You can make the Imperioused stab himself, effectively killing him or her, but you can't kill him/her as a result of the spell.

The Imperious doesn't do any damage phsically, it doesn't change the anatomy of the body from the inside at all. Instead it affects your subconcious mind, and if it is powerful enough it can take control of it, not your connection to your magic.

Now if you summon something from inside the body, your magical connection will resist the spell as it attempts to distrupt your anatomy. If you were stabbed however, your magical innate resistance wouldn't help you as a result of the fact that your connection is in your body and cannot leave it, only spells can.

Thus an external force impacting on your body would not distrupt the magical resistance you have. As the skin is easy enought to break with a knife, you can die as a result of your wound.

There is no Canon evidence that innate magical resistance exists. It's merely something that Fanon writers used to explain the plot hole Jk caused.

I never said it wasn't possible, you just need to have enough force to break away the connection that is stored in your body. However I believe that in order to obtain this energy that we call Magic through our connection, it needs to become more connected(I can't find the right word) for every spell.

So for every spell that you use, your connection becomes more connected(again I can't find the right word) with the magic that it draws from. So every time you use a spell, it is easier and more flexible to use next time.

Thus every time you use a spell, it makes it all the more difficult to break away the connection. As wizards most likely use millions of spells in their lifetime, you would need a spell that is extremely powerful to break away the core.

That's true, but it must have a limit somewhere. I don't know how it works, but I doubt it can produce spells that are a million times more powerful than a normal one(EX: scourgify).

 

then by that standard, spells that magically affect the body and it's subsequent parts in anyway should not work, as your body's magical resistance should hinder the changes due to magical forces (maybe this explains why most wizards aren't Animagi?).

EDIT: just found this on Wikipedia:

so if we use this example as "innate magical resistance", the power/skill requirement you stated is illogical.

i said that a few posts ago. I also ask what would happen if Dumbledore or Voldie used Accio or the Vanishing Spell on a Muggle...still waiting for that answer...

ok, that was a bad example to use. but what if i try to Vanish away my 5 o'clock shadow (though, it might hurt like a bitch)? would my magical resistance resist it?

 

No not exactly. The spells impact the body externally and cause damage to it. Your magical connection though would not be damaged, and instead it will remain wholly intact inside you body(or the remains of it).

As the spell impacted externally, magical resistance would not work in this case, as it cannot leave the body to protect you. Nor can it protect your organs as they were pierced externally (as in the spell came from outside your magical connection).

If you use the summoning charm then the spell originates in your magical connection, and pulls the organ you specify towards the caster. However as the spell was used inside the body, and in effect your connection, your innate resistance would resist the pull.

There is Innate Magical resistance, and there is Magical resistance, two completely different things. Again I admit, the concept of innate magical resistance is purely Fanon, however it would explain alot of things if used.

The Magical Resistance you are talking about, is the resistance that some magical creatures employ. It is not related to your magical connection which is used to create spells.

Rather it is a type of magic(not a spell as they don't use a wand) employed in their bodies through the connection. It acts as a protective shield that will prevent some spells from affecting the creature. Again it has nothing to do with innate magical resistance.

Well there would be lots of blood for one thing.
As muggles don't have a magical connection, they don't have innate magical resistance. So, their organ could easily get pulled out of their bodies or vanished(at least by my standards.) Again this is purely speculative, and completely Fanon.

Errr... your shadow is just an illusion caused by the sun. You might vanish the ground, but you can't vanish your shadow, unless you vanish the sun.

 

i think we're looking at using/applying the Accio spells in different ways. you're thing of pulling organs out, like the heart, lungs, and brain. The way I'm thinking about it is summonning large patchs of skin, which is within bounds of your proposal as it affects body externally.

i can accept that even though it seems the same to me.

so, could someone of Dumbledore's skill summon organs our of Harry? we did say, the more skill you are, the more resistance you have. Dumbles is way more powerful that Harry, so his power should overcome Harry's magically resistance.

lol, i meant 5 o'clock shadow as in the stubble of hair that grows overnight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_o'clock_shadow

 

Maybe, it really depends on your view of how far your body is attached to your magical connection.

I wouldn't think so, seeing as while Dumbledore is very skilled it's not a matter of that. While he may be more skilled than Harry, and his spells are much more impressive, he is still trying to break away Harry's magical connection. As the connection grows more connected(can't find the bloody right word) with each spell used, it becomes more difficult to take it away.

Let's say Harry used 10000 spells so far. That would mean Dumbledore would need a spell more powerful than all of Harry's 10000 combined. Something which I doubt he can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_o'clock_shadow[/quote]
Lol
Though you probably couldn't take all of your beard away. As the hair follicles originate inside your skin, and effectively inside your body.

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i guess it does...

i understand what you're saying Reyhkt. but like you stated before, all this speculation is mostly fanon. which is why I claim Accio is a plot hole in HP. it has no clear limitations. and if we go by Taure's theory of magical mastery, which states:

the more a wizard practices Accio, the stronger he becomes at using it. And the stronger he becomes at using it, the greater the things he can accomplish with Accio, since it has no definite limit.

but i digress. it's a perpetuating argument. i can claim it has no limitation, you can use magical resistance. while it's been enlightening, it's going no where. agree to disagree? or does someone else have a different theory?

 

While that's true you also have to consider that the spell accio is not the only one someone will use. Through your magical connection you use a variety of spells, much more often than you use accio.

So your magical resistance would be stronger than the summoning charm as you use more spells through your connection, than your opponent used the summoning charm.

In theory, if your enemy performed the summoning charm more often than every spell you used in your lifetime, than yes the spell should be powerful enough to strip away your magical connection or kill you.

Though I doubt anyone would have used the summoning charm by itself, more than another person used all his/her spells in their lifetime.

I give up though. This theory is mostly Fanon, and we have no evidence from Canon to prove it. Percieve what you will, and if you write a fic, use any idea that takes your fancy.

 

Reading this actually made me snort. Really loudly, too.

Maybe it's just because of the thread's context, but I automatically assumed this meant he apparated into Fridwulfa and took the baby, rather than that she'd already had Hagrid and his father, say, apparated into the cave and took him.

Gods, why don't more people complain about the fact that Voldemort is a Mary Sue? Truly, he sort of is one.

 

Riddle is, but Voldemort isn't. Villains can't be Mary Sues in the story itself. They're only that way before the story starts. It's just standard villain decay.

Narion

 

One potentially big one just occurred to me.

How was it that when Harry and co went to the MoM at the end of OoTP it was completely empty? There was absolutely no security at all. I mean they just waltzed right in to the department of mysteries where unspeakables get up to all sorts of hijinks and where there are powerful magical artifacts like time turners and the Veil of doom. I cannot believe that there would be no security at the MoM let alone the department of mysteries.

Is there no such thing as graveyard shifts or 24 hour work days in the wizarding world? How hard would it be to post a guard or two so a group of death eaters couldn't walk in the MoM with no resistance? What's the point of even going through all the paperwork and trouble of obtaining a time turner legally (like how McGonagall does for Hermione in CoS) when all you have to do is walk in at night and go down to the department of mysteries and pluck one off the shelf?

IMO this is a pretty big plothole because without it Harry and co wouldn't have been able to go down into the DoM and retrieve the prophecy, and the events following wouldn't have been possible (huge fight in DoM, Sirius dying, etc) unless the death eaters killed the guards, in which case reinforcements would have arrived promptly assuming there are wards and stuff to detect (dark)magic use in the ministry. There would have been no epic showdown between DD and LV and no LV possessing Harry also.

Basically, without this plothole, the whole climax of OoTP would not have been possible.

 

Movie 4 was definatly the worst film so far. There were quite a number of plot holes. Here are a few:
1. Moody's magical eye was in the wrong eye.

2. When Harry's wand connected with Voldemort's the colour of Harry's Expelliarmus was red when it should have been blue.

3. In the second task, the golden egg wasn't sorrounded by other golden eggs, like it should have been.

4. Again in the second task, Harry and the Dragon did not leave the stadium, to fly up to the castle.

Has anyone else has noticed these plot holes

 

It was considered graphically unimpressive to merely show a stadium and a quick dive.

Better to show the entire school!

Better use of time: Stripping contest between Fleur, Daphne, Hermione and Susan.

Nuff said.

How about accidental magic? Surely the Ministry would send someone to investigate as to why the BWL was using accidental magic in a muggle neighborhood.

Harry's stupidity is another. He's faced Voldemort three times by PoA. Why would he choose the path with Ron which guaranteed weakness when he could have applied himself?

Easy. Most kids aren't intelligent and J.K wants to portray Friends beat out Knowledge every time.

Illness: Hary went through a great deal of crap and inhumane conditions at the Dursleys and Hogwarts during winter, yet he never got sick.

Toiletries: Why the hell did Harry never take a shit or take a leak? Fuck, he must be constipated.

"Guys, I'll catch up with you later. I have to take a major dump on Myrtle. See you later"

And need I point out Morning Wood, Sex Ed class? Wait...that's why they wear robes! So they can cover their shameful little wand!

 

These are not so much plot holes as they are the director not sticking to the book, otherwise known as artistic license. Who gives a shit if the spell colour is wrong, it doesn't keep the story line from progressing smoothly.

If it had been in the books, then it would be an error, not a plothole.