Alright. I had an idea late last night that's been repeatedly biting me everytime I sit down to laze about.

Daniel Carpenter - Order of the Blackened Denarii... Before you guys flip here's the run down on it.

Daniel touches the coin by mistake, then accepts the temptation after being convinced by the Fallen that he deserves some recognition, power and glory. He's been the average child in the Carpenter family. Watching Molly get everything she wants, Matthew being the sportsman, Alicia being a friggin' genius, Amanda and Hope being babied, and little Harry sharing a name with Dresden (I made him secretly admire Dresden and hope to be a wizard).

Only here's my problem, I can probably get through the first couple of intro chapters fine, but what I feel it's going to lack soon is a susbstantial conflict. I don't want him to be all goody goody, or fight against his father. So I'm at a loss at what to do. If anyone can help me out with this, you'll have my eternal gratitude... for a week or two -_- Not that it's worth much though.

I just put what I've got for Ch1. on FFN so give it a quick read and see if you can get back to me.
P.S - If the conflict is good enough I think I can put Daniel against Michael, though I'd prefer not too.

 

I think the biggest potential pitfall for this plot bunny is the characterization of Michael. You can't make him a dick simply because you want to justify Daniel's gradual acceptance of the former angel's gifts. He's portrayed as forgiving, understanding, and faithful so many times that deviating from that is simply creating an OC with Michael's name.

How Michael and Daniel's relationship is going to be affected will be difficult to write. You'll need a reason why he doesn't just simply take the coin, lock it somewhere far away, and send Daniel to Denarians Anonymous, or whatever.

The idea of Daniel leaving was introduced a bit suddenly, and might be something for a later chapter. If it's necessary to get him out of this house for your plot to develop, that's perfectly excusable, though. Also, I liked how you ended your chapter.

 

The only real conflict I can see here is between Michael and Daniel. With Daniel accepting a fallen angel into his head, the big problem will be how his beliefs change, and how Michaels rock-solid faith comes between them.

You could always bring Nicodemus into the plot-line, too, since the idea of giving a 'hostage' of the Carpenter family into the hands of a super-powerful Denarian is something Dresden seems to fear.

The only real questions I have so far would be timing. What part of the series are you going to use? Before Small Favor you'd have a fully ass-kicking Michael around, but what about after Small Favor?

Anyway, the idea could be fun to read if you work it right.

 

I think you've been reading too much of Shezza's crossover and not enough of the original Dresden Files. Denarians aren't helpful little powerups. They're demons that take over your mind as soon as you give them the slightest bit of leverage. The moment Daniel's pride makes him accept the Denarian even a bit, he'll be crammed into a tiny corner of his mind as it takes the driver's seat and either gets the fuck out of Knight of the Cross home base or takes a stab at Michael's back.

 

Yeah, Dresden only survived 'cause he only touched the coin for an instant, then buried it in concrete. And never gave in to the shadow-lash-thingy either.

 

Hmmm, it seemed to me like it kind of depended on which Fallen the coin was holding. If it was one like the Fallen Nicodemus, Tessa, Deidre had and also maybe Lasciel, they seemed to be more likely to establish a partnership with their host then to skull fuck them. Of course they do seem to be the exceptions that prove the rule...

 

See below.

While the latter is true that they'd urge Dannyo to TITS OR GTFO, its all dependant upon the Fallen. Lasciel, Imariel, Anduriel, and a few others were notable cases of the opposite being the case.

Lasciel's shadow even said a willing partnership between the two was preferable to a mindless zombie.

That being said, yes, The Fallen are not 1-Up Mushrooms or Fire Power flowers. You're accepting a timeless evil of such a magnitude the human mind would reel. A level of evil you'd be hard pressed to wrap your mind around even the most basic of its forms.

Contemplate that for a minute before you go further.

 

Alright, it might seem that way right now, since all you guys do here is obsess about DK, but i'm gonna take it a bit more on the theological side.

If you notice Tamiel's title it's 5th Watcher of the 200...

The Watcher's, if you know the history behind it, chose to fall and weren't kicked out.

Their 'sin' was the need to help man. Like Prometheus and fire in Greek legends. Tamiel wants Daniel to take the coin of his own free will in order to fulfill its own twisted sense of honor. It wants a challenge in other words, since it has forever to wait. So I'm going to have Daniel try to keep it quiet and figure things out for a while, whilst Michael is on his job. Once he gets back though, Daniel's going to eavesdrop... See if that means anything.

P.S I started reading Dresden Files in '04, starting with Death Masks . Being 13 I felt like a complete badass reading it. And not to brag, but I got my copy of Blood Rites signed.

@ParseltonguePhoenix: It's post-Proven Guilty, so Michael knows about Lash. And so Molly's training con Dresden. I was originally thinking Nicodemus, but I realized that would be completely unbelievable if Daniel wasn't just a vegetable at that point. He's seen since birth that Michael had been fighting Nicodemus. No one changes that fast, hence this thread... Which no is seeming to give me conflict ideas on...

@Vash: I think I explained it above, but yeah. The nature of Tamiel is to 'help' man. However twisted in its mind it may seem.

I've seen a lot of stories with female Fallen, should Tamiel assume Male or Female form most often, switch depending on the circumstance, or stay androgenous ... This I need to hear quickly.

I'm going to be on my laptop whose wireless is broken so I'll check back when I can.

 

'Watcher' sounds more like a male title to me as most watchmen and guards are male, and so I would suggest you to go that route.

 

Just to point out, while all that is fine, its not even close to canon. According to canon, there are 30 coins, all of them part of the original Fallen. The ones like Lasciel, Anduriel, etc.

While the Watcher's Might be an interesting addition at some point, modeling them after the Denarians is not one of those methods.

Perhaps you should step back and re-evaluate your ideal.

 

When has this been said? Assuming the thirty Blackened Denarii are the coins given to Judas, there is absolutely no need for the fallen angels to be of the first rebellion.

 

The Watchers left not terribly long after the Lucifer and his crew. Over 10,000 angels of all positions fell in a week. So therefore any of them could possibly be Denarians.

Denarians only refers to any Fallen in a coin, not specifically one of the originals, and I'm not sure that Lasciel is in that original group. It might be, because I can see the Lasc- root = lascivious = temptress/seductress. Though technically it would mean something like God + Lasciviousness or something like that. Nicodemus said she was a rebel, remember, so why would she be in a coin in the first place if she didn't share the same ideals as Anduriel and his bunch. So I figure, if Tamiel wants in on the coin gig, why not. Anduriel was in the first bunch, so why is he not with Lucifer in Hell? Meaning every story will deviate from canon in some way. Butcher used the Bible, I'm using DF.

Anyway its fanfiction meaning I'm going do what I want, I guess. I suppose anyone on here should realize that their stories are going to deviate from canon. Plus, if anyone wants to jump behind Vash, at least know what you're saying is right and not just kiss ass because he's an admin. Although if you are right, it's not too far of a stretch. If you don't personally like the idea I have no problems with that. I just made this thread for plot/conflict ideas. I don't want to argue over stupid shit like this.

Now I feel as if I'm taking a theology class. T_T

 

Look, cupcake, you're the one that asked for feedback on your idea. Don't chuck a fucking hissy fit just because we ran in and out of the gaping plot holes. You can go shit all over canon all you want because "it's fanfiction" if you want, but don't ask us for help again if this is how you'll respond to it.

 

In Death Masks as well as Small Favors.

Also, Re-Read Death Masks again. The Blackened Denarii were sealed into the coins at the same time. Following this logic, since Anduriel is specifically stated as one of Lucifer's captains.

Direct Quote from Death Masks;

Ignoring everything you just said, I point you to the above quote. The Watchers are not in league with Satan. All of the 30 Fallen sealed in the coins are.

Your point and logic is, therefore, irrelevant.

YOU JUST GOT SHAT ON BITCH!

 

Eh... What is this supposed to prove? The rebellion was thousands (millions?) years before the Blackened Denarii were sealed. Who knows when and why the individual sealed Fallen fell...

And so what if Anduriel was Satan's captain? It is not like the rest of Denarians serve Anduriel. Some of them do serve him, yes, but he's not some kind of undisputed leader.

You might be right or you might be wrong, but in the end it doesn't matter as this is just fanfiction. Besides, your fics have twisted canon much, much more than this.

 

Gee, I've never been called cupcake before...

1. Pointing out plot holes I can stand, which you technically did not, I blame that on myself for not explaining Tamiel's nature.

2. I was just trying to say that if you don't like it don't help me. Neither party is hurt that way.

3. 's not a hissy fit. I don't think.

4. Tehan, do you adhere to canon? Because If trying a new idea out is bad, then I repent.

5. 6,7,8.. -_-

@Vash: you find me evidence on where it says all the Denarians are Lucifer's cronies and I'll pledge my alleigance to you. But not before that. Anduriel may be hella stronger than all of them, but doesn't mean he leads his wife and her group about. It also doesn't mean that only Lucifer's group was sealed. Then again, you tell me that any of your work adheres to canon for more than a couple of pages and I will get you a medal. Putting Harry with Ginny is canon, does anyone here want that? For that, deny as you might, is the way canon was intended to go, bro. Harry/Lily don't exist in JKR's mind. So, therefore, I think I can put a Watcher in a Denarius. Unless that's like putting Oedipus Flower on SIYE, and you'd gag harder than those fangirls if they caught sight of it. Or you guys already did that, in which case I missed it. Also, just to be an ass, its Small Favor, no 's'.

@Random Shinobi: Word. How come you always get to say what I want to say before I say it.

PS: Is ANYONE going to toss ideas for the main conflict my way? This was all this thread was about originally. I'm about 2k words into ch2.

Screw it, Imma go eat dinner now.

 

Sounds like a hissy-fit to me, cupcake.

I'm sorry, pointing out that you're doing Denarians all wrong... that isn't a plot-hole, how?

ONLY PEOPLE THAT LIKE MY STORY ARE ALLOWED TO COMMENT!

Yes, I do. In Clouds, Harry's a Gryffindor, Luna's a Ravenclaw, Snape's teaching occlumency. Then I deviate. I don't have Snape as a fucking elf or something out of nowhere. Or, for an example closer to yours, throwing in extra founders. All hail Spanglebunch House!

You start from canon. THEN you go fanfic. You don't make shit up just because it's cool when it flies right in the face of the universe you're writing fanfiction for. Down that path lies thunderbirds and Rahkesh and, well, untold millions of rebelling angels/'watchers'/demons/devils stuck in coins.

 

Frack, in Death Masks (I believe) one of the Knights is telling Dresden about the Denarians, about how they gain power from human suffering, misery, anguish, etc. Please explain to me why a 'Denarian Watcher' that wants to help people, like Prometheus from Greek legend, would gain power in this fashion?

 

Look, Powerpuff Girls. I'll try to explain this to you in a slow, logical manner in which Jurt 'Bout Any Retarted Nip could understand.

The Watchers are, in every sense you could possibly understand, different on an entirely different level than the Fallen.

The reason the Watcher's weren't tossed out after their fall was because it was all apart of the "Divine Plan." It was intended. Their sins and their fall was necessary for God's will to be achieved, according to all related mythology.

Can you honestly tell me that if a whole shit load of people started mucking up your plans, that you'd leave them alone in your paradise to continue mucking things up?

The correct answer, children, is No. Nien. Non. Say it in any language you like, the answer is no.

THAT is why Anduriel, Lucifer, Lasciel, Imariel, Magog, Gog, and a shit load of others were thrown the fuck out.

They looked down from their "perfect" existence at God's Garden, saw his pet monkeys throwing shit at one another, looked at one another and decided... HEY! That looks like fun! And proceeded to throw shit at God.

Only they weren't intended to. So God said unto them; "TITS OR GTFO!" And they GTFO.

Further expanding upon what is said in Canon, and what you both seem to fail to grasp by some ... leap of logic I cannot begin to comprehend, is a simple fact.

Nowhere did I, or anyone else, say Lasciel served Anduriel, did I say Magog served Anduriel, that Imariel, or Gog, or any other Fallen you can name (note that title there, Random and Frack; FALLEN.) served anyone. They are, however, in league with Lucifer and his general reasons/motives/principals or whatever other fancy word you want to call it.

Now, depending upon which Bible you want to follow, that reason could be different. The most agreed upon reason was simple.

God created the angels and said "You are perfect in every way." Then he went and built Eden, the animals, and then, in a stroke of genius, built humans. And then, Narcissist that he is, he turned to the angels and said, "Fuck. Look at that! Perfect in every way! Oh! By the way, I don't need you anymore, so your job is to bow and act as subservient to them as you do to me."

Only Lucifer and a shit load of others decided that this was some straight up bullshit. And they said to God; "TITS OR GTFO!" And God said "NO U!" And then there was an epic battle, Ole' Lucy lost, and his lot got the Party Van.

There are, of course, other versions of why Lucifer rebelled, but the fact remains, the Watchers did not rebel with him, nor were they a part of the original 30 who were sealed in the coins of Judas.

And Random; You seem to have a maaaaassssiiiiiveely small IQ, so Ill point it out like this. In another STORY! 8D YOU LIEK STORIES DUN YOU?! THATS RIGHT! YUS YOU DO! WHOS A GOOD LIL BOY! THATS RIGHT YOU ARE!

So, here is the DL. There was this guy, right? His name was Jesus. Son of some guy who thought he was God, who miraculously impregnated Jesus' mother. The Grapevine said he was really just a hobo, though.

But thats not important.

Anyway. This Jesus fella had some followers called Disciples. One of them was this cat Judas. A bunch of Holy shit happened and then some other cats from round the way decided they didn't want this pesky Jesus fella and his meddling kids and his dog messing up their gig. So they pay this Judas cat 30 silver Denarii.

And Jesus gets nailed to a cross, later he evolves into a Cosmic Jewish zombie, but not important to the story. The story ends with Judas dangling from a rope round his neck.

So this Judas cat doesnt have any use for the coins anymore. The assumption is that at around this time, God seals 30 of the Fallen into the coins. It, after all, doesn't make sense for Lucifer to do it himself. Much easier to have them wandering around free than in coins.

 

Gunna have to argue with you on that last point Vash. The Denarians have more freedom to act and affect the world then any other Fallen. Example from Death Masks, the uber-plague. Using the holy sheet and general Denarian knowledge ol'Nick cast the uber-plague on unsuspecting and unwilling people. For a normal Fallen, ie not in a coin, they would need the human's expressed permission to be infected and even then it would only affect said person.

EDIT:...So seeing how good Nick is at his job God wouldn't have given him free-r reign.