This. I can't stand when stories force a rivalry between Naruto and Sasuke (or Naruto and anyone for that matter) when the plot doesn't really call for it.

 

What Chime said about tactics and intelligence playing out over power seems to be understated a lot in fanfiction. Think of Kakashi, who would honestly be crap in his canon were it not for his strategies and plans. I always thought that he had average powers (despite his eye) and it was his tactical sense that allowed him to win his fights.

 

Idea about the Naruto/Sasuke Rivalry as applied to this story:

Wouldn't Sasuke be PISSED at Naruto, seeing as Naruto and Itachi are both members of Akatsuki, even though Naruto is kind of a shadow associate and right now hangs out more with Pain and Konan than anything else?

Besides, the concept of the rivalry seems to me about 2 individuals pushing each other to greater heights. Naruto has several overwhelming advantages over Sasuke already, such as his new Salamander summoning contract, the changes the Kyuubi's power made to his body, such as the eyes and the claws. Naruto already knows powerful jutsus and will only get stronger.

Naruto was trained in the Itachi mold, trained young starting at 4 years old to be a soldier and eventually a shinobi of exceptional talent. Then pile on top of that the fact that Naruto can use the Kyuubi's power, even if it drains him physically.

Then you have Sasuke, who if HotH will follow canon in relation to his development, was Rookie of the Year in the fucking Academy, not the real world, like Naruto.

Iruka certainly is no Pain, that's for damn sure, in regards to teaching the ins and outs of the true shinobi lifestyle.

When Naruto was eight, he managed to at least get on the radar of Hanzo, considered more powerful than Konoha's Sannin. Sasuke at the same age was probably brooding like a motherfucker over his dead clan and turning away fangirls.

I don't mean to go off on a tangent, but a Naruto/Sasuke rivalry, taking into account their skills and mindsets, their circumstances?

No. Just...no.

 

I understand this sentiment that smarts play a big part in ninja battle - and they do.

But not as much as many people like to think.

Powerful ninjas don't get their throats slit in their sleep. They don't die from poison in their coffee.

The idea that a ninja in the Naruto universe can be a true assassin is fanfiction. Nowhere in the manga is the idea of a ninja assassin supported through actual events.

Look at Zabuza - who tried to assassinate the Mizukage. He was an expert in the art of silent killing according to the story yet failed in this task despite all the preparation in the world (supposedly).

And before anyone says it - the Mizukage he was trying to assassinate was most likely Madara's successor and not the man himself.

Look at Kakuzu's reaction to Shikamaru. He tells him that he admires his smarts, but it doesn't make up for his lack of raw strength and ability. And this turns out to be true when Naruto has to come and finish off the old bastard in a one on one face off.

Kakashi isn't nearly as bad as people here indicate. He's literally the second strongest ninja in Konoha in chapter 1 of the manga - their strongest jounin.

His speed, strength, and basic skills are on par with the likes of Deidara, Hidan, Deva Pain, and even Itachi come Part 2.

He knows a huge number of jutsus.

He also uses his brains - as you say - but to say he relies on them is incorrect in my opinion.

Shikamaru is the only ninja I can think of that is all brain and no brawn, and he's only won a handful of fights mostly due to the complete stupidity of his opponents.

In the Naruto universe, a genius like Shikamaru is still no match for a ninja genius like nearly all of the high tier characters we see.

They may not match his brains, but they are still smart enough to see through simple tricks and allow their skills to carry them in fights.

In the Naruto universe, stupidity can get you killed.

Weakness will get you killed one hell of a lot faster though.

There's no such thing as a relatively weak high tier character.

 

Well, wrote out a big review, fav'd the story, about to adjust the rating here... >> And forgot to copy before I submitted. xP So Howdy'll get to read it through the normal channels, and I'll just express my base appreciation in short here.

Kickass chapter.

What sets a lot of good fanfiction aside from the bad (and the canon) is the idea of our main Big Bad, Orochimaru.

Yes, Naruto has a demon sealed in his belly and can Hulk out with it. Yes, Pain has the god status and near godlike abilities of his Six Paths.

But Orochimaru has spent almost 50 years scouring the elemental countries for power and pushing the boundaries of life and death in every way his sick little mind can come up with. You're telling me he gets beaten by a berserk demon in the body of a 13 year old? Or a 35 year old Hokage thrown back in time? Or a drag queen with an extendable sword and a couple sub-par eye tricks?

...

So the evil guys are the BBEG, until the point comes that you need to off them casually to show off the super amazing power of the main character you like the most? What about loyalty to your readers? Or your fans? Or your pride god dammit!?!?

Seriously, IGN related this guy to Darth Vader in terms of popularity and villain qualities for the manga reading public. The Dark Lord of the Fucking Sith didn't die in his bed while the machine put his helmet on, why, praytell, would (did) Orochimaru.

... o_o /endrant

The only character in the whole bloody series that uses his bloodline like it should be used, as a particularily useful tool, but a tool none the less.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you in a big way right here.

Orochimaru was never meant to be seen as the unstoppable evil force that many people in fanfiction like to make him out as, which is one of the reasons why I find the story Chuunin Exam Day completely intolerable.

The only thing that sets Orochimaru apart from many of the other villains in the story is his complete lack of morality, humanity, and redeemability. In all honestly he's just about as cookie-cutter as a villain can be.

Give him a wand and call him Voldemort.

The very first major fight we see him participate in he gets crippled and pretty much never recovers for the rest of the story. In fact, he never scores a victory after this point.

It's fairly obvious that Orochimaru isn't even the strongest Sannin, with Jiraiya easily trumping anything Orochimaru has shown in his battle with Pain.

In the end, Orochimaru, like Itachi, were only bridges to the greater threats in Akatsuki and devices to move the plot forward.

When placed side by side with a forty-something year old genius with a legendary bloodline limit and a hundred-year-old genius with the other possible strongest bloodline limit in history, a guy like Orochimaru doesn't look all that impressive.

He lost all credibility for me when he admitted his inferiority to Itachi and then fanboyed all over Sasuke during his training.



PS- If anyone is feeling bored I encourage them to take a look at the introduction chapter to my new story-that-I-work-on-when-I'm-not-working-on-my-story story:

Wild World

 

Oh no, I agree with you all the way. (The pedo-vibes were creepy as hell too.)

I'm saying this is what Orochimaru should have been (notice the rant applies more to canon itself than any particular fic), instead of an annoying distraction. I like my Big Bads to be Big and Bad dammit.

 

In my opinion Pain and Madara are so much better.

Pain is a twisted idealist - the exact antithesis of Naruto. He's the anti-hero of this story and that's why he's one of my favorite characters.

Madara is just an angry old dude. While his goals are selfish, they also seem to be very human. He was betrayed by people he legitimately cared for despite trying to do well by them. On the other hand, everyone directly involved in this betrayal is already dead - so it's hard to say just what his motivations are right now aside from increasing his power through the Kyuubi and possibly the other bijuu as well.

Orochimaru is the kind of villain you don't have to think to hard about to write well. He's the creepy, twisted, and delusional guy who cares nothing for anyone other than himself. Really he's just a disgusting individual, and there's not much to that.

 

Just as a point of clarification: did Orochimaru admit Itachi was too strong or too strong for his possesion technique to work? Because that's honestly the end-all-be-all of Orochimaru's relationship with Uchiha.

 

It's very unclear.

Personally I think he meant, at the time, that Itachi's will was too strong to overcome - as we saw during their flashback encounter.

However, Orochimaru seemed to think that his Yamata jutsu could overcome Itachi.

And he was horribly wrong.

So in the final analysis, Itachi seems to me to be the superior when all of his MS abilities are taken into account, yet they obviously are a double-edged sword - so much so that his use of Susano-o contributed directly to his untimely death.

 

I've been thinking about the title for Chapter 8.

'Twilight Zone'.

To me, this states the situation perfectly. The Rain arc is over, and was everything I expected from it and much more. But things are kind of in a strange holding pattern right now. Hanzo is dead, and Pain, Konan, and Naruto have to contend with cleansing Rain of every vestige of the old order.

Personally, I think that Naruto will stick with Pain and Konan no matter what in this fic. I've been reading some of the reviews for HotH on ff.net and some people are saying that they think that eventually there might be some kind of split between Naruto and Pain and Konan.

I don't see that.

Pain and Konan, to my knowledge, have been as open with Naruto about what they want and are trying to accomplish, within reason. Both short term with Hanzo's death, and long-term, as creating permanent change in the Elemental Countries.

Seeing as Howdy explained Pain's goals much better in Chapter 6, to his credit, I could infer that the reason Akatsuki might go after jinchuuriki in this fic would be to deny the Ninja Villages access to powers that tip the scales too heavily in their favor. Because frankly, raging demon container ninja can trump a lot of things.

I was initially confused in Chapter 5 with Pain sending Naruto to contact the other jinchuuriki, such as Gaara and Yugito, but I can see why now.

Maybe.

Seeing as they have a demon container in their ranks, and the strongest one at that, perhaps Pain and Konan can see an alternative to death and the Hell Statue for jinchuuriki.

Getting the demon containers to simply think more about themselves and their welfare, their survival, as opposed to serving institutions that would use them, such as Yugito with Cloud, would go a long way towards making them think or hesitate to let their Villages use their radical powers so freely and perpetuate the same old cycles of destruction and war that Pain is trying to break.

As Naruto said in Chapter 5, Yugito is not the Raikage's brother, and does not enjoy the same freedoms he would and does. Cloud did this to her, stuck a demon in her. Why should she be so ready to put her life on the line for people that made her an outcast and a target?

I can only imagine and hope that this is a tangent that Naruto would continue to touch on with Yugito in the future.

Thoughts, Howdy? In detail, please.

 

Again, I don't want to give too much away right now, but I suppose I can touch on a few things.

First off, once again you've hit very close to what I have planned.

In regards to Yugito and Gaara - I'll say that these are the only two that were contacted for a reason. Like Naruto, they are both very young and not fully entrenched in their own villages.

As you said jinchuurikis represent a volatile and possibly disruptive force with regards to Pain's plan for the future. In short, if they can't be persuaded to join up then they must be eliminated. The older jinchuurikis either won't see eye to eye with Akatsuki's - and more importantly Pain's - goals or they'll be too loyal to their own villages and therefore won't get the option of joining the ranks.


As far as Naruto going against Pain and Konan - well, you'll just have to wait and find out.

 

Don't misunderstand what I was saying. This is exactly what I don't want Howdy to do. I mean, I didn't want to tell him, "NO SASUKE LOL", he's the author, not me. And the bit about rivals? I agree with that. Naruto isn't anybody's rival in this story. He's Pain's lackey, not some dumb kid with his head stuck up his ass.

Orochimaru is powerful, though I've never really saw him as being able to endure cleaving attacks to the waist... or other deadly attacks. Yeah, he can use snake-clone jutsu (or whatever it is he does) when he sees an attack coming. And if he can escape, he can switch bodies if one becomes too damaged, so he does have a longevity factor working to his favor (meaning he can theoretically become the strongest ninja in existence... he just has to be able to live long enough and become a master at different exotic abilities), but he could easy be defeated to a kunai cut across the throat, or a heart explosion technique, or something "weird" like that (no one seems to have those types of 'expected' skills or abilities in Naruto). If Naruto posed as an Ame ninja, and he let one of his 'teammates' become Orochimaru's host (like in the manga) he could possibly kill him by surprise – the forest of death doesn't really lend itself to either tactics or 'intelligence' (planning ahead, having secret info on the situation or enemy), though that is a farfetched scenario and would make Naruto seem godly.

It's just the mindset I don't like. People thinking that Naruto has 'no chance'. Like Kakashi said, 3 genin could take on a jounin with proper teamwork, planning, and intelligence. A 'jounin' (dunno Naruto's power level in terms of rank) disguised as a genin could possibly kill a Sannin.

 

I think you have to look at it in the context of the story.

Orochimaru is not only a high profile missing ninja from Konoha - who probably has had at least a few run-ins with hunters - but he's also the traitor to the most prominent ninja organization in existence. He's got at least a dozen S-ranked ninjas who would love nothing more than to kill him.

Basically, he's been looking over his shoulder constantly since leaving Konoha and doubly so since leaving Akatsuki. I just can't see how anyone could get the drop on him.

Also, as others have said, Orochimaru has taken durability and longevity to the next level with his experiments. A simple kunai across the throat - as impossible as that is against a ninja of his calibre - would probably not kill him.

Look at the Oro vs. KN4 fight to see some of his ridiculous survivability and the power of his uber-kawarimi.

Tsunade going to town on his face during the Sannin Battle is also a good example.


Naruto is not set in a ninja universe. It's set in a universe controlled by incredibly powerful battle mages. Dispel any notions you may have of assassinations and epic battle trickery. That's not how things play out in Naruto land.

 

Howdy....

Looking at your reply, I still think it highly unlikely that there would be a complete break or a total betrayal on Naruto's part against Pain and Konan. He owes them far too much and is already too deep into the middle of their plans.

That said, I think that Naruto should and could be the one to keep the two of them honest in regards to the Grand Plan. Looking at it, Naruto really knows no other way to live other than his life with Pain and Konan. But I can see Naruto becoming the moral center in this little mad plan.

It was already said in Chapter 6 that Naruto reminded both of them of Yahiko, who seemed more of an idealist. That is good, as idealism seems to be neccessary to balance the harsh realism of what Pain and Konan are trying to achieve.

What I can see of this dynamic right now is that Pain, Konan, and Naruto are Akatsuki. The other members such as Kisame, Itachi, Sasori and the rest seem to me in the context of this fic to be the public face/muscle of Akatsuki, but they are not the upper management.

Madara is focused on screwing over Konoha to the grave, so he doesn't count.

Pain said in Chapter 6 that he was a god, in the context that he would let nothing get in the way of his goals. In reality, that idea is much harder. If his goal would be reached by utterly annihilating a country and everyone in it, would, could he do it?

The beginning of this idea is explained in Chapter 6 at the end with Pain explaining that in order to distance himself from being seen as the next tyrant like Hanzo, he has to destroy utterly everyone and everything associated with the man. That includes the old and the young, which Naruto is a little wary of.

I have a feeling that Naruto would do it. It is a hard heart that kills, and the truly great must have hard hearts in order to achieve their goals. But even if you harden your heart, you must still have a heart. Drones and mindless soldiers might kill indiscriminately and with impunity, but true soldiers and warriors must know that ruthlessness must have it's limits.

That's the position I can see Naruto filling. Had Naruto not been a member of the group, I doubt Pain and Konan would have considered approaching the younger jinchuuriki and things would have proceeded like canon.

Konan said in Chapter 2 something along the lines that if Naruto kept his humanity and his goals clear, even if he was called upon to do something terrible, such as kill, he wouldn't lose himself. That is what I see Naruto doing for Pain and Konan, keeping them honest and on point. Directing their force constructively.

Thoughts, Howdy?

 

I like it, and it's definitely very close to what I am planning as part of their dynamic.

Again on the topic of the other jinchuuriki - with Pain's realization that the Kyuubi can't be extracted the plan has changed quite a bit. The manga hints strongly that the Kyuubi is a good order of magnitude stronger than any of the other bijuu - possibly as strong as the other eight combined. Therefore, the nuke jutsu isn't really feasible, as the first eight bijuu were really only necessary to provide balance in the sealing statue for the Kyuubi's capture. At best the super jutsu is only as strong as the eight lesser bijuu. Removing one or two of those from the equation won't make a huge difference to the overall effect of the jutsu like Kyuubi would.

So basically, while the nuke jutsu is still feasible, it will no longer be the country-killer that Pain had initially planned. Therefore, Pain has come to the realization that instead of an eight bijuu explosion it might be more effective to have a seven bijuu explosion and a second loyal jinchuuriki.

The equation has been reworked now that Kyuubi is out of play.

 

Who is the pic in your avatar of?

It kind of looks like Lawrence Fishburne in a wig...

 

Cowboy Curtis, sir.

And it is Lawrence Fishburne - from his immortal time on Peewee's Playhouse.

 

How could you not know that? Every time I see Howdy's avatar (and name) I hear in my mind Curtis saying "Howdy yall" lol.