Kakashi said that people with certain elemental chakra can learn justsu outside their own element, but it is a lot harder to learn than the jutsu that fall under their affinity.

 

That clears that up. Thank's a bunch.

EDIT: Now I have another one. When Sarutobi fought Orochimaru, Enma fought the Shodai and Nidaime at the same. Just how strong are the Boss summons? An what about the summons that aren't quite boss level? Jiraiya used Gamaken to fight several of Pain's summons.

 

They're certainly powerful, but for the most part supplementary in my mind.

People also tend to forget that simply obtaining their contract doesn't mean that a summon will fight for you. Being a weak ninja and having a strong contract won't do you a lick of good if your summons decide they don't want to help out.

I'd also like to point out that zombie Hashirama and Tobirama most certainly weren't fighting at full power against Sarutobi. They may have had access to their strong ninjutsu, but there's just no way in hell they were that weak in real life. I chalk it up to their minds being pretty much completely taken out of the equation.

 

Orochimaru was controlling them and telling them what jutsu to use wasn't he? That would explain why Sarutobi in his old age could hold them both off.

 

Not explicitly, but it was stated that by putting the seals into their heads he was overriding their minds and turning them into his puppets.

Frankly it would make no sense for old man Sarutobi to fight off both the legendary Hashirama - who was at one point said to be the strongest ninja in the world by none other than Uchiha Madara - and his brother as well.

 

Unless ninja are growing in orders of magnitude each generation. IIRC Sarutobi got the job rather early, like pre-teen early, so he must have been extremely impressive. Itachi was extremely powerful as well, and he got his ranks at a similarly quick pace. Sarutobi (in his prime) vs. Itachi would have been extremely interesting, in my opinion.

Back to my point, it wouldn't be rediculous for Sarutobi and Enma to hold off both Orochimar and the 1st and 2nd if Sarutobi was a level of magnitude above them, as far as deadliness/skills go. Orochimaru/Itachi seem to be more dangerous then Sarutobi was, and even further then that, Naruto is incredibly dangerous, and he's fairly young. If we assume that each generation is stronger then the last by a large margin, then it'd be strange if Sarutobi couldn't, even if he was getting old, hold off the 1st and 2nd (especially considering how few techniques they used). Using the above asumption (which I always made) makes it especially impressive that Sarutobi could hold off Orochimaru at all.

 

No proof of this. You're comparing pre time skip power levels to post time skip. If Sarutobi were a main playing in part 2 he too would be god like.

I do not think Shodai and Nidaime were full power in pre uber time skip levels. Sarutobi made it clear during the fight that they are just as strong as he remembers. It's just that part 1 powers aren't as impressive at part 2 powers.

Sarutobi is a legend too; God of Shinobi and The Professor. If one of the main themes of the story are to be believes; that the next generation is stronger than the previous, then Sandaime should be more powerful than Shodai and Nidaime. The Sannin (together) should be more powerful than Sandaime. Yondaime etc etc.

 

Pre-skip levels?

What are you talking about? These characters didn't come out of nowhere - this isn't DBZ. They were always around. And if you understand the Narutoverse at all then you'll understand that most of Akatsuki are missing nin for a reason - that reason being that if they stuck around after their betrayal they'd be dead.

The power scaling doesn't work like you think it does.

Just look at Sarutobi himself. He's sixty-nine years old and still powerful. In your made up world he would have been killed off long ago by younger ninja. And before you say it, that whole "God of Shinobi" thing was just Orochimaru patronizing him and trying to get under his skin. Sure he may have been called that at one time, but I don't think it was ever implied by anyone reputable that he was the strongest shinobi of all time or any other such nonsense.


Main themes of the story? Sorry, but I'll stop you right there. People like to take Kakashi's words to Kakuzu and act like they're the damn Bible. Kakashi was trying to be hardcore. That's it.

Tsunade yells at the old codgers trying to push her around because they're meddlesome and useless.

What you see and call "the old generation being surpassed by the new" is really just old people looking to the future.

Everyone does that.

But it is not a rule or major theme of the story. Naruto will become stronger than anyone in history. Sasuke and Sakura may surpass the ninja of the past as well. The rest of the rookie dozen? No way in hell.

Just look at who your arch-villains are:

A forty-something megalomaniac and a hundred-year-old old fart who talks to his (probably just as old) plant sidekick about "plans" all day long.

Sarutobi is only one generation removed from Hashirama and you think that there's going to be a marked difference in their levels of ability to the point that a middle-aged Hashirama gets trounced by old man Sarutobi?

Sure it's possible that Sarutobi surpassed his old sensei, but please don't tell me that it was inevitable simply because Hashirama was a generation younger.

There's a reason why Orochimaru flat out said that Sarutobi could have whipped him if he was just ten years younger - because Orochimaru never surpassed a prime of his life Sarutobi.

According to your logic Kakuzu shouldn't have survived as long as he did. Madara shouldn't have either. Hanzou shouldn't have spanked the Sannin like he did.

Kakuzu lost not because of that generational crap but because he ran into one of the most gifted ninja prodigies of all time. Simple as that.

 

Your whole argument is speculation. Give me canon proof.

Okay, let me try this another way to get through. I am saying that the jutsu, villains and other ninja compared to part one stuff are different. Everything in part 2 got an upgrade. In part 1 Shodai looked like a powerful ninja. In part 2 he looks like an uber powerful ninja.

Sarutobi also isn't a field ninja so a younger ninja isn't exactly going to have the chance to attack him. A powerful old man can live if he sits behind a desk all day.

Actually, Kishimoto confirmed that Sarutobi and Yondaime are the two most powerful dead shinobi of all time, this is including Shodai and Nidaime. So, yes Sarutobi is considered one of the greatest shinobi of all time.

Yes, main themes. Haven't you been reading the manga? The message that Kishi is always trying to push on us is how the next generation is more powerful than the next. If it wasn't a main then it wouldn't be something that's mentioned multiple times throughout the story. Even Sandaime was talking about it in part 1 about how the next generation carries on the will of fire etc etc. It's a central part of the story.

Which is why I said the Sannin together. The three together would probably whoop Sandaime's ass.

Kakuzu, Madara are special circumstances. Kakuzu has ways of keeping himself alive for centuries. It's hard to kill a man 5 times, even for a young powerful ninja. Madara also has some way to live beyond reason if he if actually the Madara of old. Shit, Naruto hit Kakuzu with the Rasenshuriken and the man was still alive in the end.

When they fought Hanzou they looked to be teenagers. They weren't considered the Sannin yet and hadn't gotten the powers they would later have (I assume).

Kakuzu lost because he got nerfed. Who are you calling a gifted ninja prodigy? I hope it isn't Naruto.

 

I have to agree with Evil on some points in the DBZ comparison:

I mean, you thought Zabuza was badass originally, then you move up to Gaara and Neji being top of the food chain in abilities shown with coffins of death even Jounin are worried about and the touch of DOOM!... then you have Orochimaru, who, it turns out, can be beat by an emo-kid that has four years of ninja experience under his belt-sasuke has been active what, 8 months or so when he defected?... to a one eyed-bastard that can control the strongest demons known to man, that are said to cause natural disasters on a whim, but fights with MPD... to a God that can't be killed, can be in several places at once, and can effectively drop a nuke on a town...

I mean, yeah, you have to have character growth and conflict to keep a story interesting, but it's shit like this that really, really makes me depressed sometimes. New shiny types of chakra control/training and new-uber-eye-powrz seem to become the deus ex machina that fit every type of situation. Need a handy escape from death? Stare the target to death, or make a construct out of your demon chakra and substitute it as you own. Need a powerup? Oooh, new types of chakra training- first elemental, then sage, then if-I-scream-more-and-longer-my-hair-will-change-colors-and-charge-up-my-attacks-more!

Seriously, what happened to the deception, the trickery side of things? Remember when it was awesome when Naruto substituted himself as a windmill shirken (sp?) to stop a stalemate? When there were actually new attacks, not Chidori mk III, Rasengan 4.5, or Evil-Eye-Stare-of-Ownage XXVII? When there were interesting new ideas? Or people that were Legendary were heads and shoulders above everyone else, not merely stepping stones that could be surpassed with two and a half years of hard work.

I know, it's a rant, but seriously, canon has been really wearing down my interest in the series lately. It's almost become a guessing game of "how will he fuck with our perceptions next?" You might be right, the story is about heroes -gag- and their ascent to their positions, but I keep on seeing a lack of direction, as if kishi is writing each arc independently before stopping and moving on to the next; there just seems to be too big of a jump from some points to the next-

example: Naruto blows up a huge hole in the ground with Oodoma Rasengan (yeah, yeah, not spelled correctly, whatever) in fight with fake!Itachi. It is the most powerful attack that we have seen, even dwarfing the Hyuuga's Kaiten from the House Head (Hanabi and Hinata's dad, whateverthehell his name is) during the Sound Invasion. Then we get Rasishurken, which obliterates an even larger area! And finally we get the pocket nuke which levels mountains... Anyone see something similar here (Kaaaamaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaammmmaaaaahhhhhhaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!) - complete with the condensed training session in one week?

It's still a decent story, but I keep having flashbacks to how quickly DBZ went down the shitter and worry, you know?

 

Pein's character isn't as simple as wanting to take over the world. While yes, he said something like that to Hidan. What he said to to Jiraiya and Tsunade are completely different. He wants to create conflict, which this incident will cause, and make people feel Pain.

I assume that getting that he is trying to get the Jinchuuriki because they are powerful enough to stop wars if necessary. Jinchuuriki = nuke that everyone fears. So getting them from the villages will stop making people hesitant to go to war.

That is how I see it.
I still don't like the whole nuke thing though.

And also, <3 Pain.

That's all.

 

True, Naruto does have a really special talent when it comes to thinking on his feet, at least in part 1 (Zabuza vs Kakashi fight, vs Gaara, vs Neji etc etc), but if we are talking about being a prodigy like Sasuke, Itachi or Orochimaru then he falls short.

 

Random Question:

What About Bob Kabuto?

We haven't seen the specticaled, self made hybrid-bastard in sometime, any theories?

 

Assuming he is able to hold off Orochimaru taking over his body and somehow combines to make a whole new ninja I am assuming that Kabuchimaru is planning. He still has Orochimaru in him so I have no doubt that he is planning something big.

Or, with Konoha nearly destroyed and Sasuke on his way to cause even more damage he may show up then since killing Sasuke and then Naruto are his top two goals.

I think it would be cool if he was somehow working with one of the other hidden villages, preferably Iwa....I would love to see a real war in the Narutoverse.

 

Spoilers are out

Spoiler

Asura Pein seemingly dies for real this time.

It mainly consists of Naruto being bad ass and getting praised by everyone. YOu know the typical shounen stuff.

 

It's official, Naruto is now bad ass and I forgive Kishi....for now.

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6661/6398607755898pg1.jpg


...On Kabuto...what if he shows up during Sasuke's invasion attempt which then leads to Naruto and Sasuke teaming up to beat him....hmm, bleh.

 

Nah, Naruto still has a long way to go before I'll even consider him badass. If he can give us a good fight with The Pain however, it'll at least be a step in the right direction.

Kabuto's pretty much fucked honestly. Sage Naruto punches him and he goes splat, Sasuke can just burn him to a crisp. As an added bonus, if he goes after Sasuke he'll probably have Madara breathing down his neck.

 

Fuck. Been hanging out for this update all week.

 

Small question for the rest of you. Do you reckon Sasuke is now the strongest Sharingan wielder?