What demons? I wasn't aware there was a greater cosmology in HP. Still, I too like the idea of a more than animal level intelligence on their part, though not on the level of humans.

 

I think Naga has to be right about their intelligence level, and it makes some sense that they could be killed by a patronus if they were trapped in an enclosed space and forced to take repeated hits. I suppose an AK could do it too; weird that no one seems to have done this in a fic already.

I'm with Nefar on the 'demon' explanation. While we know there's necromancy and an afterlife in HP, there's no evidence of gods, angels, or demons. Whenever I see these things--and sometimes it's in really good fics--I get irritated by how much it changes the HP universe.

 

This is one of those questions that will never be answered, much like this one which really bugs me:

Why did Harry never receive any mail before Hogwarts?


Also, a random thought came to me the other day. Wouldn't it be possible to destroy horcruxes by casting them into the Veil in the Department of Mysteries? We know whatever passes through the veil dies, so why not horcruxes? It seems like a simple, yet elegant solution to me. Fuck off with the basilisk venom bs. Also, why didn't Dumbledore think of that?

 

Because the HP universe is not logical, contrary to the best of Hermione Granger's efforts.

No Mail: Mail Wards? Put up by Dumbledore? And removed after he started school?

Horcrux destruction: Because it wouldn't be a long and dreadful story if everything has a convenient solution to it? Or maybe the veil only kills living things? Or maybe Dumbledore wanted to keep the Horcrux destruction low profile, away from Ministry attention? Or maybe Dumbledore is needed by JKR to die so that the DH storyline can proceed.

 

This is not another plot hole thread. We already have one of them, thank you.*

Demons: Demons do exist in the HP world, at least taxonomically. Kappas are introduced as "water demons".

Now, Dementors...

Breeding: We've had this discussion a load of times and it seems to me the conclusion of the previous discussion is always forgotten. Maybe because its unglamorous.

Dementors, according to JKR, are a literal anthropomorphic personification of depression. They do not reproduce with each other in the way of animals: rather, as a collective, they are more like a fungus. Dementors, as a race, grow and shrink based on how much depression there is in the world/local area. Thus in HBP, when a dark mood grips the nation, the Dementors are multiplying in number as a representation of this. Similarly, after DH when everyone begins to be happier again we can expect the number of Dementors to shrink.

This sheds whole new light on Voldemort's relation to Dementors. As a creator of fear and grief by his mere presence, he is a kind of father of Dementors. His existence leads to Dementors coming into existence.

As for how the Ministry controls the Dementors, we're told in the books: they give them the prisoners of Azkaban as free tasty treats. It's a carrot method, rather than a stick.

And if you think about it, it's generally how we control animals in the Muggle world. I trained my dog - and so do most others - by rewarding him with food to psychologically associate a response of a given action to a given command with reward.

The fact that there was food elsewhere in the world didn't come into the equation.

Voldemort is like a guy who comes along to your house and creates a trail of food leading out your front door which the dog will follow and end up in the wide world, where there's food to eat (at least from a dog's perspective) everywhere.

But until someone does that the dog is content with its lot.

I would equate Dementors to animals.

Finally, I'd say don't underestimate the Patronus charm. As for how it works, I think you're overthinking it when you try to explain it in terms of feeding. Dementors are the personification of depression. The Patronus is the personification of happiness. Happiness is the opposing force of depression, and thus drives the Dementors away (under JKRs optimism no doubt she sees happiness as intrinsically greater in power than depression).

*That said, the question of whether the veil would destroy a horcrux is an interesting one. It seems to me that it would either destroy the horcrux or make it impossible to destroy (impossible to get to, thus destroy). We know that the only way to destroy a horcrux is by destroying the vessel. Does the veil deal out physical damage? It doesn't seem so to me. Its possible by chucking a horcrux through the veil you'd be making it invulnerable by transporting it to a location that is impossible to reach. Though I suppose even if you have a horcrux in some sort of realm of death (which is presumably where the veil leads) then it will end up serving the reverse purpose of anchoring you to death instead of life.

The whole question is moot though. Even if the veil destroys horcruxes, and even if Dumbledore knew this, why would he choose to use that method of destruction when he has Gryffindor's sword hanging on his wall and Fiendfyre (and no doubt a variety of other powerful spells) at his wandtip?

 

I agree with Taure on Dementor's breeding and why it chose to side with Voldemort. His explanation of Patronus charm makes sense. Think about it, when dementors are near they brings out your worse memories. In that moment you'll be in a state of pure despair. To perform any offensive magic like AK needs a certain mindset (such as hate, cruel pleasure and the need to hurt someone, which only intensifies dementors effect on you). So the perfect solution is Patronus. It not only helps to remember happier moments in your life, it also drives the Dementors away. But the solution is not for dark wizards.

According to this site,
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Dementors
Hope the following will answer some of your questions.

I can't figure out is how they communicate with dementors. For negotiation or relay orders they certainly need a communication channel. I doubt any death eaters will be allowed to enter Azkaban to negotiate with them.

If Dementors can sense emotions not the person who is projecting them, they cannot see or identify the difference between dark wizards and ministry. So my theory is, Perhaps The Ministry or Unspeakables created a way to communicate with dementors through patronus charm. Dumbledore as a Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot privy to such charm which allowed him to modify it for the order's use. As for Voldemort, Rookwood was an Unspeakable. So he got it from him and used for negotiations. I may be wrong but that's the impression i got.

We can also go by the theory that Dementors can sense magical signature. It's unique and it certainly explains why Dementors can track Sirius and Harry without attacking muggles. It also explains how it identifies Ministry wizards (perhaps they have a charm or badge which will alter their magical signature for identification purpose, used strictly for ministry? ). The only hole in this theory is the case of Barty Crouch Jr's escape from azkaban. Since Crouch Sr. was a Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement in that time, he simply ordered them to do nothing. For Voldemort, they can sense Dark mark in case of negotiation.

I like Taure's analogy about equating Dementors to animals. But i think their mindset will be in terms of dangerous wild animals (such as lions,tigers) not in terms of dogs. You can tame wild animals to certain extent, even then it'll always be on a leash.

The purpose is when it goes feral, the leash will contain it from harming others. While the ministry can tame them by providing azkaban prisoners as a food offering, what insurance does the ministry have that put leash on dementors?. Patronus drives them away but not contains them.

I thinks there are ways to kill a dementor. The ministry with it's man power can contain dementors in a confined place with lots of Patronus. Dementors cannot move through solid objects. In order to live or reproduce they needs feeding. Going by the fungus theory they will cease to exist after a certain time. If not the ministry can use AK to finish them in that condition from a safe distance, though i doubt it'll work. May be there are other ways which not explained by JKR.

Thats why dementors fears them and thats how The Ministry controls them. The Ministry needs prison guards & needs a way to control dementors and the dementors needs protection from ministry & needs food (Azkaban prisoners) for prolonged existence. So the agreement is a win-win situation for both of them. In Voldemort case, he offers protection from ministry with unlimited food supply (Muggles,increase in dark mood etc). It's no wonder that they chose to side with him as they have no loyalty.

 

It's something of a moot point because of the Statute of Secrecy, but what happens if every wizard in Britain goes out and starts casting cheering charms left, right, and center? And if, by some organizational miracle, you could hit every person on the planet with a cheering charm before the effects of the first one cast wear off, (a) would Dementers as a species vanish, and (b) would they reappear from nothing [as opposed to the described 'breeding'] when the charms wore off? Given Rowling's mathematically challenged population levels in wizards the latter is probably an impossible scenario in canon, but still an interesting hypothetical. Actually, in canon, is there any mention of charms (or anything else for that matter) 'wearing off' after a while? I can't recall a spell ever ending without the intent for it to end. If that's the case it would be a reasonably simple, if somewhat time consuming, act to hit everyone on the planet with a cheering charm or three.

Or it serves normally to separate body and soul in some manner, which would allow it to rip the soul fragment from the vessel undamaged, shunting the physical object away to whatever metaphysical dead-end everything else that falls through goes to. There's no real end to the possible workings of the veil, as, even in canon, it's presented as an almost total unknown.

There's nothing to say that Dementers are 'alive' in the traditional sense, and, given how little is canonically mentioned on the workings of both Dementers and the killing curse, I find it hard to believe an AK would do anything. It's rather problematic to 'kill' a manifest emotion, so I suspect you would be correct in your doubt.

Also, I read your JRK typo as 'jerk.' I am infinitely amused by this.

 

Edited.

As for use of AK - avada kedavra, meaning "I destroy as I speak". An explosion or green fire may result if the spell hits something other than a living target. Even if the dementors are not 'alive' in the traditional sense, destroying it by explosion will be possible. If that happens what of the souls it consumed? will it return to the original bodies or will simply leave the world?.

This is all speculation anyway, but the point is The Ministry can make life difficult for Dementors. It'll be in their best interest to serve The Ministry rather than fight with the possibility of erased from existence. At the least Dementors know that they are hopelessly matched in a fight against wizards without backup (Voldemort or any other powerful allies).

 

I was sure it actually means "let the thing be destroyed" - an ancient kabbalistic healing spell.

Says what? (I assume you meant "explosion").

 

From hp-lexicon

As for the Patronus charm - remember Bob the Dementor... the Dementors get on 'sugar high' and leave to waste the energy before they literally explode O_0

Wasn't it so that no one knew what happens with the objects send through the Veil? Why would Dumbledore risk it to send one through the thing and secure Voldemort's immortality!?

Dementors, immortal or not, could be physically restrained or that is what we are lead to believe. If that is the case then one should presume the fiends are just another form of mental control for the masses to spread fear but not really useful in actual fighting situation.

 

I doubt a cheering charm will make a suicidal man less depressed.

 

Why's that?

I mean, a cheering charm seems to be pretty much like an instantly working anti-depressant.

 

You give a depressed man happiness. After a hour you take it away.

Yea, great job, bro.

 

1. Who says it wears off like that?
2. Just like a pill, you would reapply.

 

1. I don't think we're shown a spell directed at a person that doesn't wear off - except the killing curse. Seems reasonable.

2. I don't know, I think it's like the Mirror of Erised. You can't manufacture happiness.

Both of them are my opinions, so it might not amount to much, but I think both assumptions are likely enough.

 

Taure: point taken with respect to demons. But the existence of kappas hardly implies the existence of our traditional idea of demons.

With respect to dementors, your solution is an elegant way to reconcile JKR's comments with canon. As I see it, though, her explanation is very problematic.

First, I think she was discussing her creative process rather than wizarding cosmology. While creating these creatures, she simply envisioned them as the embodiment of our experience of depression.

Second, if collective wizarding emotion can literally cause beings to pop into existence, then the HP world seems like it should be a whole lot more chaotic. What happened when the whole nation of Ireland was celebrating its World Cup win? Did ten million happy leprechauns fall out of the sky? I just don't think her explanation works.

 

Odd. I don't recall being shown a spell that does wear off, thus countercurses, the hospital wing, and the overused 'finite' bit. We're shown in TOTP if not before that stunners require a counter, Ennervate; we're shown in PS that the leg-locker curse requires a counter, though I don't recall if we're given the counter itself at that point. I can't recall any canon instance of a spell wearing off without external influence. I may be wrong - there's a hell of a lot of canon detail I don't remember - but I don't think spells are meant to wear off as such.

EDIT: And the Mirror of Erised manufactures happiness in much the same way as Dementers manufacture fear and despair; neither creates emotion, but rather each influences a nearby human to create it for themselves. The cheering charm might not necessarily work on the same principle (though, I suppose, it could) but nonetheless influences the mind of the wizard to, if nothing else, believe himself cheerful. And if you believe you are cheerful, what difference is there, really?

 

The Cheering charm is actually the only spell I can remember that we're told does wear off: Harry overpowers his charm on Ron and they have to wait it out for Ron to calm down.

This may have been because Harry cast it badly though.

My own personal theory is that the length a charm lasts depends on how well it is cast. A perfectly cast spell (i.e. one cast with the Elder wand) will last forever, or until cancelled by a suitably powerful cancelling charm. A near-perfect charm (e.g. one cast by someone like Dumbledore) will last so long as to be for all practical purposes indefinite. And then you have varying degrees of duration depending on competence.

That is for Charms only; I think that transfigurations last until Untransfigured, and Dark Arts not only are indefinite unless undone but also actively resist being undone.

That's just my ideas though.

 

Can you give me a reference for Dementors being immortal? Because while I'm not 100% sure, I'm still fairly certain that's a fanon fact, not a canon fact.

As for why they were with the Ministry, I'll quote from the Harry Potter Wiki:

You're a soul-sucking creature who doesn't just do it for kicks, but because it's a necessity of existence. Wizards, who know you exist and make it a point to learn certain weaknesses of yours, don't particularly like the fact, but offer you a compromise: you refrain from feeding at will, feed on only those they want you to feed on, and you get to live as a more-or-less protected species.

Then someone comes along and offers you the same deal, which is actually a better one: you feed on who they want you to feed on, which is pretty much everyone outside of their lackeys, and seemingly far fewer restrictions on what they can do to said persons.

Which deal would you take?

 

If that is the case then the only explanation why wizards actually buy clothes, for example, instead of transfiguring them should be lack of ability to apply the desired transfiguration. Since they are taught to change a matchstick into a needle in their first year though, it's logical to assume that by the end of their 5th(perhaps not everybody gets into the NEWT levels) a transfiguration of clothes should not be beyond their capabilities.
So, the answer to why the Weasleys would be dressed in "hand me downs" like clothes, should be that transfigured things tend to return to their "natural" form/equilibrium given enough time. The time could vary depending on the materials transfigured, properly cast transfiguration and/or eventually if they have some "inner magic" or something that would speed up the process.

On the part of the Dark magic though I agree...