Quoted for complete truth. The Joker from The Dark Knight is a prime example of this - erratic, yet ruthlessly methodical. He even calls himself 'an agent of chaos', because everything he is doing furthers his own ends towards creating more anarchy. Where I as an anarchist believe in the ultimate good of mankind when confronted with chaos, the Joker takes the opposite view and believes in its depravity.

Hmm... although I have seen Joker!Harry, I've never seen Anarchist!Harry... I'd read it, if I could find it...

 

Alright, so how would a "lawful evil" person go about then?

 

Oh, so you want to bring the D&D alignment system into this now, do you? :awesome Okay, I'll play along.

If we follow that hopelessly arbitrary and deontological system, we'd see, at first glance, that there are very few differences between lawful and chaotic evil, beyond the obvious (demons vs. devils, for instance). But when one takes a closer look, one can certainly see differences.

Let's consider some superheroes/villains, shall we? The Joker, especially as portrayed in The Dark Knight, is the very definition of intelligent chaotic evil, with a strong bent towards chaos. He believes laws are arbitrary and contrived (he has a bit of a point there) and thus seeks the downfall of society through brutal means. To quote him, "You see, I'm not crazy - I'm just ahead of the curve."

Let's compare him to a number of characters I wouldn't hesitate to label as 'lawful evil.' Dr. Doom, Lex Luthor, Magneto, Ozymandias, and Harvey Dent aka Two-Face are all characters that prefer organization, structure, and 'peace' for their societies, regardless of the means to acquire them. They have no qualms ruling or enforcing justice in their society as tyrannical or brutal, but they have rules in which they follow.

Using terminology like 'lawful evil' only really becomes relevant within a certain framework of thinking (in this case, it would likely be closest to deontology or virtue ethics). I'd advise taking a look at the Book of Vile Darkness from the 3rd Edition of D&D if you want better clarification there - there's a whole chapter in the beginning of the book which deals with differentiating between lawful and chaotic evil.

Eh, I read through it. Even as someone who is more tolerant of Snape than the average member of DLP, the fic couldn't hold my interest.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of making chaos and destruction through the use of Harry's very own cult of followers. Who needs to pull a Joker when they have a majority of wizarding society following their "god's" insane doctrine? At that point, it wouldn't be as much him controlling the masses as letting them loose upon the world.

 

I generally agree with you, but don't lose sight of the post I was replying to.
Can you see the joker performing "political" machinations for years in order to fool some higher ups into going along with him?
What did he do to convince the mobsters to use his services? Join the mob as a cappo and work his way to the top? No, he just showed up at their meeting and killed one with a pencil.

 

TDK Joker? Chaotic evil?

Name a single moment he does something that's not part of a plan. Including lying to Two-Face about not having a plan to send him off the deep end.

I mean, sure, his goals (assuming we know what his end goals were) might be extremely CE, but his methods are pure, refined LE.

 

No, LE would be finding a way to work within the system to achieve your goals. Consider a LE lich who excuses himself from his lair, only to press charges against the adventurers who trashed the place looking for him.

Having a plan doesn't mean you're Lawful. It means you're not an idiot.

 

Nnnnnnope. Lawful, to define, is the respect of order, usually displayed by Lawful Evil characters' respect of their superior's orders, and a sort of code of honor. Lawful characters keep their word, and value following "the rules" in general. But, a Lawful Evil person doesn't respect other people's lives, property, or rights. They're usually tyrants, or soldiers who kill for killing's sake but follow the chain of command. Lawful simply means adherence to rules, but the rules aren't one, universal chain everyone follows. The rules as defined by a lich and the rules as defined by a paladin are wholly different.

 

But then could we consider the Joker as having Lawful Evil methods? He seems to have no respect for the way things are, especially with the way he screws over all the Mafia families just so he can follow his own path of chaos. I would place him more as a Neutral Evil in his methods than Lawful, since he basically does things for the lulz.

 

I think the argument goes both ways, the Joker does have a plan, but he has no inherent morality or "rules" that he follows. A lawful evil person, at least when I played, is someone who utilizes a system for their own benefit, the example I think of is a politician staging a revolt to despotism/fascism. Within the moral bounds of their society, they shape the public opinion to the point where they want to be ruled by one person. Lawful evil persons have a personal code of conduct that they do not go against. The Joker doesn't appear to have one of these. Just because he has a plan doesn't mean he's lawful. Chaotic evil has always been pictured, at least in my mind, as a person who actively seeks to cause mayhem(or death), and does so by any means. So long as it gets the job done, who cares? Chaotic evil is traditionally the 'pure evil' alignment, but it doesn't stop your from planning things out. After all, can't you cause more chaos if you make several bad things happen at the same time, instead of one at a time?