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Turncoat - Discussion Thread [Epic Spoilers]

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Jon, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The one thing I am now absolutely certain of is that Cowl = Harry from the future. This whole story has introduced plot points that practically yell it out from the heavens. Here's why:

    1) Demonreach - a source of a shit load of magical power that gave Harry a sort of omniscience while on the island. It is alluded to being some sort of project of the White Council's in the past, I'm thinking it's a last resort in case something disastrous happens, something that will happen in one of the next five books (Butcher has said that some of the books will be in a post-apocalyptic setting, right?).

    2) Grey Council - Harry is gradually changing his views to ones more in line with the White Council's, specifically the one about sacrificing innocents for the good of the whole. What difference would it make to the fate of the world if say... Cowl had succeeded with the Darkhallow and become a demi-God? Would it destroy them all? Or would it give them the power to face an even greater threat, one that hasn't awakened yet?

    3) Lash - She's still alive, we all know it, and she has the mental processing power to utilise the Demonreach's pseudo-omniscience in crafting a spell, and who better to understand the way time works than one who was around at its inception?

    4) Rashid - His suspicion of Harry as a member of the Black Council, his warning about the Demonreach 'changing' him, his already established ability to send messages back in time from his future self. I think he knows Harry will become a member of the BC but doesn't know when exactly that will occur so he's keeping an eye on him, waiting for the time when it happens or perhaps trying to change it.

    5) Ebenezer's journals - Harry is being groomed either for a position on the Senior Council or to become the new Blackstaff, that much is certain. Both the Blackstaff and Gatekeeper positions allow access to time travel magic and Harry has the moral fortitude to withstand falling into the lures of Black Magic in the event that he does become the Blackstaff. Added on to that he will also receive the journals of Ebenezer's forebearers, whom were probably Blackstaffs themselves. That's a lot of knowledge, even if there isn't much magic in them. Knowledge is power and I've got a feeling that the original purpose of the Demonreach is recorded in them books somewhere.

    6) The Black Council - While never the most benevolent of characters they seem to have been behind 90% of the schemes in the series and have their hands in every party going. White Council: Peabody. White Court: Madeline. Red Court: All of them (likely due to mind control - guess who is good at that...). Jade Court: Cristos has spent many years in Asia and he's a very likely candidate to be a member (need more info for that). Black Court: Mavra. Seelie Court: Aurora. Unseelie: Possibly Mab, though I think she's aware of it if they do and that they've either bound her voice or done something to let them know what she's saying (hence the game of charades and speaking through another medium).

    The only ones I can think of that might not be infiltrated would be John Marcone's gang, but he's involved with Monoc Securities who are almost certainly a front for Odin (or something related to him/it) and thus wild cards.

    There's more to come but I'm tired and not thinking straight any more so I'll come back and edit it later.

    Also, MORGAN NUKED A SKINWALKER! FUCK YEAH!
     
  2. Samuel Black

    Samuel Black Chief Warlock

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    I can see one problem with your theory. And that's the fact that Cowl has tried to kill Harry, or at least in White Night Harry assumed it was Cowl. If Cowl really was Harry from the future, he'd understand that if he actually succeeded in killing Harry, there would be a major fucking paradox.

    On the other hand, since he already survived everything his Cowl threw at him when it was his first time around, he knows that Harry will survive whatever he throws at him.

    Fuck, I hate time travel.

    Edit: Yeah, like Ellisande said. I really hate time travel. It'd be pretty interesting if Cowl did turn out to be a future version of Harry, but I'd almost be... disappointed, I think. Unless there's a damn good reason for it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  3. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Or maybe he was just pushing him into the situation he needed to be in. Where he wanted him to be.
     
  4. Red Aviary

    Red Aviary Hogdorinclawpuff ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Harry becoming evil to stop evil sounds appealing to me, for some reason. I guess I just like that premise.

    Molly being Kumori would fit, too, if her dad (or the entire Carpenter family) died. It would explain her desire for a world without death.

    As for Turn Coat... 4.5/5. My biggest gripes with it have mostly to do with Butcher teasing us with Dresden's mother, and with no one getting any Swords of the Cross in this book... complaints already detailed by others earlier, so I don't really need to elaborate.

    And I've got a problem with Morgan dying, but it didn't effect how much I liked the book much - I just thought he was totally badass. I'm going to miss that earth-magic he did in Dead Beat.
     
  5. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    I am willing to bet that if the Merlin gets his way Harry Dresden will never get closer to those journals than he did in Turn Coat. Those journals would turn a already extremely dangerous Dresden into basiclly an unofficial blackstaff.

    I personally can understand the reasons why the Merlin and the others distrust Harry so much.

    1. He was a killer at the age of 16. Sure in self defense but its something that marks you forever.

    2. In terms of pure power Harry is more powerful than most of the council. Luccio says that even she cant match Harry power for power. Sure Luccio or Morgan could probably tear him apart piece by piece but they have had over a century to master what power they have.

    3. His contacts. Really think about this. How many people can actually claim to have meet, spoken too, and survived all the Queens of Winter? He is Mab's first choice as Knight. He is friendly with the Summer Lady and Knight, not too mention having meet the Summer Mother. He is friends with the only active Sword of the Cross. He has contacts in the Church. A major ally in the White Court in Thomas and a sort of ally in Lara. Ivy likes him, Kincaid respects him enough to help at the very least.

    Im probably forgetting some people but these are the major ones outside the council. The scary part is that he has meet all these people at less than half a century old.

    4. Knowledge: No telling what all he learned from Justin, Bob, Kemmeler's Book(enough that Marva is scared shitless), he has mastered alot of what he sorta knew from teaching Molly.

    5. Experience: if you cant figure this one out reread the books.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  6. Koalas

    Koalas First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    As cool as it sounds there is one major problem with Cowl = Future!Harry. Paradox. Bob has confirmed it, paradox can happen in Dresdenverse. That is why its one of the laws of magic.

    Yet Kumori didn't know about Dresden's burned hand. Cowl overestimated Harry's abilities in Dead Beat. This points to a different timeline then what has actually happened. Which is a problem when dealing with time travel.
     
  7. Anlun

    Anlun Denarii Host

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    Just finished reading it. I liked it but there was something really offputting about the book. I don't know what it was but after I finished I was left with a bad taste in my mouth.

    I guess I just felt like it was a major cock tease. From Small Favors we were left with a crippled Michael, Harry with two swords of the cross and a possible user in Murphy, a taste of Soulfire but no real good use of it, and a strong buildup.

    This should of been a wind down book with a some strong foreshadowing, but instead we got the same format of an epic all hells battle in the end, with Harry getting his ass kicked, but using his noggin to get a one up.

    I'm for epic battles but I'm getting a little tired of huge shit going down every book. It weakens the importance of actual battles when every year Harry fights some crazy battle. Think back to Summer Knight. The reason that book was so amazing was because until then all Harry did was fight one on one, or two on one against some Big Bad. But then we get Summer Knight, where it's an all out war between the Fae.

    I think Butcher need to go tone down the battles, have Harry kick ass but not have an Lord of of the Rings esque battles.

    Listens to the Wind was really uninteresting to me. Perhaps it's because I don't give a shit about shamanistic magic, or maybe because I couldn't stand that shapeshifting. What was the point of fighting the Skinwalker with shapeshifting when he was raping it with his own magic?He made it rain nulling the Skinwalker's magic, and he was just bitch slapping away all the attacks. It seemed to be just a cock waving contest between the two. One turns into a snake, the other a mongoose. One turns into a raven the other a an eagle...Seemed very Wonder Twins.

    Shit I didn't like:

    -What the fuck was up with the headaches and the MRI machine mention, if they don't bother mentioning it again.

    -Listens to the Wind
    -Barely no mention of Michael. I get he was featured greatly in the last one, and The Warrior is about him (haven't read it), but it would of been nice to hear an update on his status.
    - No updates on Harry's magical knowledge. Perhaps I'm one of the few who feel this way but I've always enjoyed when Harry would do something new with magic that we haven't seen before. Potions, little Chicago, summoning demons, etc. Yes we had the DemonReach thing but I found that unimpressive. I prefer more knowledge based magic than cheap powerups.

    -Harry getting his asskicked yet again. Just once I would like him to have a onesided fight with something and coming out on top without some disfiguring mark. Anyone question how ugly is this guy. He's a ridiculously tall, lanky guy that's been mentioned to be really skinny (though now apparently he's gained weight , with a gross burnt hand, age lines across his face, a scar down his brow and cheek, and a scar down his lip. He also dresses hobo ish with the exception of the trench (which is just weird),and wears pimp rings on each finger.

    The bullshit resolution at the end where Harry goes to play Dungeons and Dragons or w/e with the wolf pack to cheer them up after their friend just got eaten a day ago. Give me a fucking break. And then he has the nuts to give this holier than though speech about moving on. The guy just got mauled the day before, show some tact. That was poorly done imo.
    Awesome stuff.

    -I liked the Skinwalker. I don't like the way he was used, but the concept was nice. It's good to see magical beings that are not factionalized. Seems like every magical being in TDF forms an organization, and it's nice to see something outside the box for once. On a side not didn't anyone catch the mention of the SkinWalker being called a demi-god or something along those lines?

    -Morgan nuking one.

    - The non-magical badass detective. It was stupid to have another detective in the story but I liked the character

    -Almost no Murphy. It took 15 books but finally this bitch learned her place. No "I'M A COP DRESDEN I TOOK AN OATH" bullshit. She finally accepted that she can't do shit.


    Is anyone else disappointed that we haven't seen any demons since the early books? I've been hoping for some Chauncy or some other demon interaction, but it looks like Butcher is staying away from that. All Dresden has to do is call one up and ask it about the Black Council.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  8. skuert

    skuert Squib

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    I think soulfire doesn't disappoint at all. Harry uses it in a very diffrent way than in small favour. to me that reeks of potential...

    You assume the Merlin knows about those journals.
    The way I've read it these are passed down from master to pupil and the white councli doesnt have any say in it.
    Though it would be interresting if The Merlin learns of the journal of merlin and demand it...



     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2009
  9. Raggerd

    Raggerd First Year DLP Supporter

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    My likes and dislikes about TC pretty much echo what has been posted here. The one thing I haven't seen discussed much here yet is:

    Wile E. Coyote - Suuuuuper Genius

    I like that he is getting craftier. I feel that will help him more than learning how to control Soulfire or make a more energy efficient fireball.
     
  10. Sagita

    Sagita Fourth Year

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    I do not think that Cowl = Harry from the future, after all it would be a waste of time to go back in time just to try to turn into a demi-god knowing that you will be beaten... And the whole "I want to get myself to where I need to be" sound kind of dumb having the knowledge that there can be paradoxes. Anyway, no one can really know how time travel works here and it will just cause headaches all around.

    I think that this book has fortetold the probable dead of Ebenazar and with the whole conversation about the journals I think, as many here, that Eb wants Harry to fill his post however, unlike many here, I think that the Merlin won't have a problem with Dresden filling said post, I think that Harry gained some favor with Merlin after his work in TC.
     
  11. Koalas

    Koalas First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I think you're confusing 'favor' with acknowledgment of his abilities.
     
  12. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Even though the Merlin doesn't like him, he won't hesitate to use him. If he is best suited to the post of blackstaff, then the Merlin will put him in it.

    I don't think this is likely for a while however. But yeah, that could be taken as favor.
     
  13. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    For the people who have been deriding the time travel!Dresden idea... Perhaps alternate universe would suit better? Or Dresden having changed the time line since coming back, though that would create a paradox... Well, we'll just have to wait and see.
     
  14. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    I quite agree. Butcher has pointed out several times that the Merlin is a politician, and if there's one thing politicians are infamous for it's a willingness to do anything to advance their interests. However much personal dislike there is between the two, the Merlin is pragmatic enough to see when Harry is useful and take advantage of him; that's pretty much exactly the reason he helped Harry investigate the charges against Morgan after all.
     
  15. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, he's a politician, but he's also a man. He'll never like Dresden, only learn to stand him when it's beneficial. The dislike is pretty strong; it'd take a fair amount of doing on Harry's part to make the Merlin think he was a good idea for the Blackstaff.
     
  16. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    Oh, I quite agree; I doubt the Merlin would give Harry a position like Blackstaff unless it was the only effective option he had available, and even then he wouldn't be happy about it.
     
  17. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    The main problem I have with Cowl= Harry from the future is that it would probably be atleast another century and a half before Harry is talented enough to use magic like that. Then he has to go back to the 1920s or 30s to become Kemmler's apprentice. That puts him on up there even for a wizard.
     
  18. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Unless he goes back in time fairly soonish (say when he's 50), then becomes Kemmler's apprentice, then has 80 years or so to get that good at magic.
     
  19. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    My main problem with this idea is that it cant be easy to do. I doubt there are many wizards who know how. Im betting the magic is complicated and we all know that complicated magic isnt Dresden's thing.
     
  20. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    He has been learning a lot lately, and has gotten much better with the more subtle magics. Also, personally I see time travel as being more of a brute force type of magic. Punching your way through the walls of time to travel/send messages back.

    One quick question though, since Lash is at least somewhat gone would Harry remember any part of the Word of Kemmler?
     
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