Hey, at least it wasn’t Harry/Ginny, right? RIGHT? >_>

With so much chatter recently about whether H/Hr is a story-killer, I thought I’d create a thread for the enlightened among us – that is, those of us who actually like reading H/Hr stories.

This can be a place to share recs for new/old H/Hr stories, make fun of idiots who drop the word ‘Herman’ at the mere mention of Hermione, or even debate said idiots on the merits of the H/Hr ship. Or, if all else fails, it could provide the Hermione haters with some lulz.

Since I’m getting the ball rolling, I thought I’d explain why I think Harry/Hermione works. I debated this with Sesc months ago, but, alas, failed to cure him of his heretical beliefs.

Given canon events and personalities, it’s the ship that makes the most sense to me. I’m not saying that H/Hr is “The One True Ship!11!!,” so put your kitchenware away. There are great stories for many different ships, and we’d all get bored if every story were H/Hr.

So, without further ado:

When Harry Met Hermy; or, Why You Should Excise ‘Herman’ from Your Vocabulary

One of the biggest things in Hermione’s favor is that she is literally the only person in the series who sees Harry as Harry and not the BWL or something else. Even Sirius sees him as a sort of reincarnation of James. Everyone else is either in awe of him or hates him because of his image. But Hermione isn’t impressed by his celebrity status. Why this would be a good thing in a relationship is obvious, I hope.

She’s also his most loyal supporter and friend. Ron abandons him at crucial points several times, but she stays loyal to Harry even when it costs her dearly. She believes him after the Goblet of Fire incident, even when the rest of the school turns on him. She follows him to fight Death Eaters at the DoM, despite having serious reservations. She abandons her education, something that’s extremely important to her, to help Harry on his horcrux hunt. She even stays with him when her douchebag boyfriend abandons both of them.

In short, she’s always there for Harry, even at the cost of her personal goals. The only time I can think of her acting in a truly selfish manner is during sixth year, when she is annoyed with Harry’s potions book and becomes obsessed with Ron. (The former is understandable because it violates her sense of fair play, but the latter is so unbelievable that it stands out starkly as OOC. She somehow got turned into Parvati for half the year).

Moreover, she’s good for Harry. They were both alone and ostracized in their youth (for different reasons), and I think he recognizes that in her. She’s pushy, sure, but she’s always pushing Harry to be better, stronger, and smarter than he currently is. He would not have developed into any kind of leader without her backing him. Neither the DA nor the horcrux hunt would have been possible without her.

(Crucial point here: despite her influence, Harry is the leader and Hermione the follower in canon. The ‘Herman’ crap is a result of fanfic writers exaggerating Harry’s abuse/incompetence and creating scenarios in which only the flawless Hermione can ‘heal’ him).

It’s also clear that each finds the other physically attractive. She tells him how ‘fanciable’ he is and he is gobsmacked at how beautiful she is at the Yule Ball.

So what’s not to love about the ship?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, I can practically hear some of you muttering in disgust. ‘She’s bossy! She’s self-righteous! She’s obsessed with proving herself! She’s slavishly devoted to authority! She’s afraid to break the rules! She’s got bad hair! She farts in her sleep! Her cat has hairballs!’

It’s all true. (Well, maybe not the flatulence, but even the British eat Mexican food sometimes, right?) None of those things undermines her character because she slowly grows out of her most annoying quirks.

Slavish devotion to authority? She tells Umbridge and Trelawney to stuff it. She doesn’t give unearned respect. Desperate need to prove herself? She selflessly abandons her education to help her best friend. Afraid to break the rules? She slugs Malfoy, bewitches McLaggen to help Ron, helps Harry create an illegal organization, etc.

Bossy and self-righteous? Sure, but it’s almost always motivated by her sense of justice or her need to protect Harry. She confiscates his broom because she thinks it was from Sirius Black (And it was). She tries to help the house elves because she despises slavery in any form. (And she gives up when she realizes her efforts are counter-productive).

Hermione’s most annoying aspects have their roots in childhood insecurity. She is clearly vulnerable to doubts about her self-worth, which is why she feels the need to prove herself to those with authority and pursue justice for the oppressed. The same thing extends to her physical appearance.

You may or may not find this endearing, but she grows out of her insecurities during the books, and it is her relationship with Harry that allows it to happen. She may push him, but he rescues her from a life of lonely obscurity and low self-esteem. He’s good for her too.

Thus endeth the tl;dr.

I’ll close by rec’ing a story that all appreciators of H/Hr should read: Vox Corporis by MissAnnThropic. It’s a long, epic romance, so you will have to wade through some fluff, but the characterizations are excellent and it’s one of the few stories where their animagus forms actually become crucial to the fight against Voldemort.

So – comments, criticisms, recs, flames? Let’s have ‘em. I wanna see who’s got a secret beaver fetish.

 

Really? I just ate the real tacos, yes I am a Mexican, and I am not flatulent thank you very much.

Anyway, this was the ship that always made sense to me, what you just wrote is what I have always tought. There's no jelous monster, there's just sense.

Harry is the weakpoint of the ship, he isn't always there for Hermione but I think that can be explained by his lack of friends during childhood and Ron's place as his first friend (Hagrid doesn't count).

 

Harry and Hermione are completely different Hermione is a hard worker, kinda thinks she's better than everyone, controling, really loves to learn and has a built in respect for authority. Harry is lazy, kinda thinks he's not worth annything, laidback and hates learning and authority.

 

I just don't see how Harry could be anymore of a weak point than Ron. Honestly, I hate him as a character. He is insecure, jealous, magically sub-par(well...maybe average), and in my opinion of average intelligence. He is concerned with himself for almost the entire series and honestly has no respect for how bright Hermione is or her accomplishments. On the other hand, Harry does not show, to my knowledge, any overt signs of appreciation or acknowledgment for Hermiones's help or her skill. I just feel that they would have had a more serious relationship.

 

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=311056&postcount=3

And she provides wonderful motivation for him to explore his horizons!

 

rofl dude I LOVE that thread

 

The problem with this pairing (for me) is that it is too sensible. There's no room for drama, or anything approaching character development. It just ends up too easy. They don't have to work to make it, well, work.

There's just no way to make this dramatic, unless someone becomes OOC, or creates a situation that's too angsty to be enjoyable.

 

Very excellent story, I' read it a while ago actually. I also ship H/Hr I hate the nickname 'Mione' though. I used to like it, but now I just can't stand it.

The first ever fanfiction I've ever read was Barb's Serpents Trilogy, which I actually downloaded from some warez site and after that I went looking for fanfiction and found http://fanfiction.mine.nu/ Anyways, the second work of fanfiction I've read was Harry Potter and the Darkness before the Dawn, by madscientist. Which I thought was great back in the day and still find as a guilty pleasure.

So I'll recommend them as guilty pleasures.

 

lol, Amer - did you realize that you've been sharing your loli-ewes with Snape all these years?

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=316433&postcount=36

 

Let me begin by stating, DLM, that I'm not here to gatecrash... really. Like it or not, I have enjoyed one H/Hr fic in fanfiction (Harry Potter and the Fifth Element), but frankly, I have discovered that the ship only works in very specific cases, and I find it unwieldy in the majority of cases.

First off (and this is specifically towards you, DLM), I don't hate Hermione, and although my fics Renegade Cause, Countdown, and Silence Game have taken an antagonistic POV towards her, that's more because of the changes in Harry, rather than any changes in Hermione. I'll speak more on that later, but IMO, if I'm going to be writing a fic, I'm going to be utilizing characters that both fit the roles required for the plot and who are interesting to write. In my opinion, Hermione really isn't an interesting character, because she is, at most, two-dimensional. In the vast majority of fics, she doesn't have the multi-layered, fascinating personality that would keep me reading in a H/Hr story.

Let's take a look at Hermione's personality, for instance, and the real reasons why she was a friend to Harry and Ron. They became friends because Harry and Ron saved her life, and because Harry and Ron realized it might not be such a bad idea for them to have at least someone with two working brain cells on their side. In the majority of cases, however, Hermione hides behind a shield of intellect and bossiness to mask her massive insecurities, and nowhere is this more apparent than in HBP, in her pursuit of Ron, where she compromises her own self-respect to go after him.

In regards to authority, Hermione respects authorities that she deems legitimate - which, for the most part, include professors, Dumbledore, and older members of the Order. Other authorities she treats with the same bellicose disdain that she treats those who don't toe her line - and it's a very defined line, too. Hermione doesn't operate in a grey zone, and to her, everything is very black and white - definitely to her detriment.

If we establish these as some of the factors of her personality, let's take a look at the H/Hr ship. She would like and admire Harry because of his leadership abilities, and, in the better fanfics, for his intellect and compassion. Harry, in turn, would like her for her intellect, her drive, and her tits. Frankly, the foundations for a good relationship are there, but two major issues come up:

1. Ron. Most Harmonians are insufferable Ron-bashers, which I don't think does justice to the guy's character. Sure, he's flawed, but he's one of the best friends Harry could have. The H/Hr ship typically makes him a jealous third wheel, or has him pair up with another girl and drift away from Harry and Hermione.

2. How Harry is characterized. Here, I think, is where the majority of Harmony fics tend to fail in horrifying ways. Typically, Hermione is portrayed as far smarter and dominant in the relationship, solving all the problems and becoming the hero in all but name (see: majority of canon). Maybe it's just me, but for somebody who likes reading about a Harry who is strong and independent (not really canon, once again), this ruins the ship for me. Relationships are about equality, and in the majority of H/Hr fics, there isn't any.

Taking a look at the ships that fill DLP - the Indy!Harry, the Dark!Harry, and all the other genres - I've often found that the Harmony ship seems workable, but not preferable. Let's take Indy!Harry, for instance. The very definition of that 'genre', so to speak, is for Harry to become strong and independent, something radically different than Harry's canon personality. The ideal way to make the Harmony ship work, in that case, would be for the two characters to become 'partners in crime', so to speak. But the problem with this is that often times the Indy!Harry sets himself against an authority that Hermione would deem legitimate, causing enormous friction. Hell, that was one of the main reasons why Harry and Hermione's relationship fell to pieces in Renegade Cause (although that was both characters' faults, TBH).

Or let's take a look at the Dark!Harry genre. Hermione is a character who, because of her respect for authority figures, would have a very strong personal moral code. So how would she be able to cope with Harry delving into Dark magic, hurting others for his own gain (something she can't abide - SPEW is a perfect example of that), or showing absolute mercilessness to his enemies? The answer is that unless radical changes occurred to bring Hermione to that point, she really couldn't cope with it. Even in a case where they might have no other options, she would still be adverse to taking the 'dark and easy path' (the scenes in DH when they were trying to deal with Griphook is a perfect example of this).

So yes, a Harmony ship could work - in theory. But I remain convinced that it would take radical work to make H/Hr work in DLP's preferred genres of interest, and until I see a fic that can prove me wrong, I will hold to that view.

 

I've got no problem reading a good H/Hr fic, but I don't see it working for the canon characters. There's a fundamental conflict in their personalities that goes beyond the usual "she's too bossy / he's too lazy" reasoning, IMO.

The problem with Harry is that he has an intense "pressure-cooker" personality. When things start going bad, he lets his negative emotions fester, until he either falls into a sullen fit or otherwise explodes. I think his ideal romantic partner is someone who can relieve his pressure from time to time.

Now, Hermione is undeniably empathetic and compassionate, and I'm sure she'd want him to be happy. But she consistently and routinely fails to relieve Harry's pressure. God knows she's tried in the series, but it never works - if anything, she only increases his internal pressure level.

I think this is how Rowling tried to contrast Hermione and Ginny, though the attempt was hurt by Ginny's pitifully low number of scenes. Ginny does cut through Harry's internal whining - in OotP she manages to derail his rants and brooding twice after the others fail (i.e., when Harry thinks he's been possessed by Voldemort, and during that library chocolate-sharing scene).

This is why Ron is still Harry's best friend: Ron helps Harry relieve his pressure. IMO it's what he wants in a girlfriend, too. But where does that leave Hermione? If Ron actually keeps maturing from where we leave him at age 17, he might work out. If he does not...well, Hermione could always just become a bachelorette for the rest of her life. (tl;dr complete)

 

Wow I definitely agree with ReverseSide. It is a very sensible relationship. Honestly, to me it seems what would happen if the story continued. I just refuse to believe R/Hr could work out. I see H/G not working because Harry would eventually lose interest in Ginny because well.....she is useless and is simply with him because he is the BWL. I see H/Hr starting when they would both want a more serious relationship, but I will concede to Silen's Cursor that I am a Ron-basher. So I do fit into one of the categories that were mentioned above.

 

Most Harry/Hermione writers suck. But then, most writers suck. Judging any ship based on the average content of fics containing it is always going to be an exercise in futility.

So while I agree with what most of what Silens says, I don't think it's a fair full story.

As DLM points out, Hermione is not nearly as two-dimensional as she's made out to be. She's bossy, she's jealous, she can be a vindictive bitch, she doesn't bow to authority just because it's authority (eventually - but again, I attribute this as positive character growth, in the same way I actually like that Malfoy goes from a whiny little shit to having an existing-if-incompetent backbone.)

The problem for me is the same problem I have with Ginny, and that she's not perfect, but everyone around her treats her as such.

Not to the extent of Ginny. But the double standard very much exists. Harry is easily and loudly offended when people humiliate people he likes, unless it's Ginny and Hermione badmouthing Fleur - even after Fleur proved herself after Bill got fucked.

Hermione is a social retard, yet still managed to pull the cockblock of the century in regards to Cho, and then had all the answers as to how Harry should have handled it...

Double-standard regards to Romilda/McLaggen, and McLaggen's tryouts. Again, the issue here isn't really Hermione - these acts make her a good, flawed character. The problem is nobody else seems to have an issue with it. Harry is supposed to be a bit lazy, a bit emo - but with a strong sense of right and wrong. It completely undermines his character for him to not care that Hermione is rooking over innocent people to help Ron.

My personal favorite, canon!Harry is so idle, he needs Hermione, in fifth year, to tell him who Theodore Nott is. Really.

It goes on from there - Hermione casually oblivates her parents, Hermione gets pissy about the HBP, even going so far as to rub it in his face right after Dumbledore died that the Prince really was a she (irrelevant) and that she was 'half-right'. Again, at no point does Harry confront her for her tactlessness or general attitude throughout the year.

It's really a wonder that Ron didn't blow up more than he did, and Harry didn't follow his lead at some point.

How this relates to the ship.

Harry/Hermione simply can't be as Harmonious (LOL OBVIOUS PUN) as it is always written in these stories. To be done realistically, there has to be some tension, Harry has to grow a backbone, and things need to blow up once or twice. Otherwise you're either writing a Hermione-centric story, a Harry/Mary Sue where all of Hermione's very real flaws are rubbed away, or worst of all, canon!Harry who bends over and just puts up with everything.

In conclusion, Hermione has to have her flaws and everyone else needs to wake up and realize she has them, and respond accordingly. Rowling didn't help matters.

Personally, I don't write it because I admit I have an obsession with what are essentially OCs. But I have no problem reading and enjoying H/Hr, provided that the characters are true, and they recognize shit when they see it. Sadly, this doesn't happen very often.

Plus, Romilda just has a better set of tits.

 

Uh, I'm pretty sure that he covered every single point you made in his post.

As to DLM, I read your post, and enjoyed it. I personally have no real "favorite ship", as long as the fics are good, and written well, and makes sense.

I'll also definitely try out Vox Corporis, I have see it before, but ignored it. Not sure why.

 

I agree with this for the most part, Reverse, but I still think there's room for drama in their relationship. While it's an obviously sensible one to outsiders, the characters themselves are not sensible.

Part of the drama would involve two emotionally awkward people coming out of their shells and recognizing what they already have together. I agree that it's hard to imagine plot obstacles to them being together, but emotional obstacles are abundant. And let's not forget that neither one of them is perfect.

I disagree with you here. She certainly idolizes certain authorities and has a deep-seated sense of fair play, but I don't see her as so inflexible. Take her disagreement with Harry over Snape's potion book. She's irritated with him and thinks it's both unfair and dangerous, but she doesn't turn him in. She just tries to talk him out of using it. She's stubborn, certainly, but will not ultimately pursue one of her notions into folly. She abandons her knitting crusade for the house elves, after all.

Sadly, you're right about both of these things. They are the two major failings of most H/Hr fanfics. I'd submit, though, that Ron-bashing is nearly universal in its appeal these days, as he really is just that much of a douchebag.

The best H/Hr fics avoid a scenario where Hermione dominates Harry, and I agree that no one here really wants to read that anyway. That said, even the best H/Hr fics usually create a situation where Harry and Hermione share the spotlight as hero and heroine. Most H/Hr writers adore Hermione, so they're unlikely to set up a scenario where he dominates her in any way. There's really no escaping that, I guess, but it does have its roots in canon.

Agreed. Whenever Hermione breaks with Harry in some believable way, it's because she respects some higher authority more than she needs to be with him. That's what I did in The Potter Conspiracy (and got reamed by Hermione fans for my efforts), but even then it felt to me like it required an exaggeration of her blind loyalty to authority.

So yeah - I agree with you about her flaws, but I don't see her as so rigidly inflexible. The Hermione of canon never had to deal with a major personal tragedy. If, for example, her parents got killed by Death Eaters, you could make a solid case for her becoming more 'grey' and vicious in a dark!Harry story.

 

I've yet to read H/HR that doesn't go like this:

1. Harry's fighting Voldemort and other social or political stigma

2. Harry converses with Hermione about anything at all (topics of toothpaste could turn into romantic banter between them)

3. ???

4. Love

Their relationship is always tranquil, or at worst, easily amendable. In Dark!Harry stories Hermione is either 'corrupted' or sympathizes with Harry's cause, in Grey!Harry she's a motherhen who's usually charmed by Harry's unending wit and class. In Good!Harry, the relationship is even less complex.

HR needs to stand on her own - and by that, I mean not being bossy or intelligent. She needs to form her own opinions and strike down Harry's. In the end she might decide he's right or she might tolerate his opinion (forbid she convince him he's wrong), but she'll stick to her beliefs before she decides to follow him around like a lamb. In most stories, their biggest disparity is SPEW or 'Dark Magic'. Ugh.

 

I don't think I was as clear as I should have been about this, really. If anything, this is a fundamental point I want to get across about Hermione, and that is that she doesn't have a grey zone when dictating morality to other characters. If she sees someone who is stepping over one of her 'moral lines', she flips out. On the other hand, she has no compunctions stepping into a grey zone when it comes to her own actions (most of HBP is glaring evidence to that).

Case in point, Hermione has no problem dictating morals to Harry and Ron while shifting her own moral guidelines when it's convenient, as though she knows its the only way her plans would work. Her own insecurities prevent her from admitting it, though, and that's one of the reasons why she vehemently defends her 'rightness of opinion', regardless of truth. Deep down, my hypothesis is that Hermione struggles to find purpose in her life - I mean, Harry's got to take down Voldemort, and Ron's got plenty of goals of his own, but Hermione doesn't that same sort of drive, and she struggles to find it through most of canon, often by helping Harry wherever she can and with some of her side projects (the most prominent being SPEW, which she gives up on when she likely realized it was going nowhere).

In short, one of the main reasons I can't stand Hermione in most fanfic because she's an insecure hypocrite - and one of the main reasons why I like Harry so much is that he at least sticks to his guns, no matter what. Canon!Harry might have him a little slow on the uptake and requiring a bit of a push, but that's what fanfics are for.

 

This thread is going to fucking crucify Silens.

That's really the most annoying element about Hermione's character. She constantly sits on a high horse and moralizes, then conveniently forgets everything she just said when she wants something. And then there's the thing I consider linked to this. Through the entire series, she always has to be right. I'm thinking about the entire sixth year, when she lectures the hell out of Harry ("Oh, Malfoy can't be doing anything at all harmful, he's just acting in a highly suspicious manner with fuck-all subtlety."). Making it worse is when every fucking character acts like she's right, and when proven wrong nobody even called the bitch on it.

 

This. She even has the gall to remind Harry she was right about the Potions book after Dumbledore's fucking funeral.

...

Somone should write a one-shot on that where Harry doesn't let it go.