Most of my feelings have been covered already, so I'll just put up the bullet-point version of why H/Hr fails:

1. Hermione-Sue. (to be fair, I've rarely read a 'shippy story where the love interest wasn't a Sue, but Hermione-Sue makes me want to kick a baby).

2. Harry-as-Hermione!Lite: In a large percentage of H/Hr stories I've encountered, Harry quits doing everything he enjoys (like Quidditch) in favor of spending all his time training and reading in the library.

3. Weasley bashing: there's an unhealthy amount of Weasley hate among H/Hr shippers

4. Harmonians: To be blunt, FUCK HARMONIANS. After a year incessant pissing and moaning and threadshitting after HBP on every goddam HP forum I was part of, I'd be perfectly happy if everybody on Portkey.org was mauled by a pitbull with AIDS. I wish each and every one of them a case of terminal dick cancer.

Last but not least:

5. There's no indication at any point in any book that Harry actually likes Hermione in a romantic sense--she just doesn't seem to be his type.

 

The ship has the worst goddamn fans too (in agreement with Nukular).

 

I'm not sure we read the same books, Sesc - don't you mean that the tension always skyrockets when Ron and Hermione are forced together? Harry and Hermione almost never bicker or seethe at each other when they're together. In fact, there's always a certain amount of tenderness in their relationship. (He sits by her bed and strokes her hand when she's been petrified; she soaks his bleeding hand in murtlap; he comforts her after Ron's departure in DH).

There are tensions in HBP because she thinks he's cheating, and that snipe about being right about the book is way out of line, but both Harry and Hermione were massively OOC in HBP. Hermione somehow lost 50 IQ points and Harry wandered around aimlessly like a retard for most of that book. HBP is the exception to the rule for both their characterizations.

And yeah - I'm afraid we do disagree on Harry's characterization in canon. You see him as independent, driven, socially competent; someone who grudgingly tolerates Hermione's abrasive personality for the sake of their friendship. That sounds more like Indy!Harry to me. Even so, Indy!Harry and Hermione can work if both lose a few of their rough edges.

Ah, I see your point, and I sort of agree with it. It's certainly one of Hermione's flaws, but I don't think it dominates her personality (except in HBP, which, like I said, is an abomination of a book and the exception to the rule. I hated her character there too).

That said, you make it sound like she's a shrieking harridan waiting for an excuse to jump down people's throats. I just don't see it. For the most part, she's one of the most compassionate and socially conscious people in the books. She's certainly got her flaws, but I don't think anyone was trying to argue that she's perfect.

Wait, what? Did you just say that Harry was more driven than Hermione? That Ron had more personal goals than she does? You're just fucking with me, right?

Don't think I've read that one, but I may have to give it a try. I'm a bit wary of madscientist though. She/he wrote that 'Circle's End' fic where Harry and Hermione were so superpowered that it was cringe-worthy. Isn't that the one where they apparate all over Britain following Voldemort, destroying half the country in their wake?

 

...TROLL! In the Forums... THought you ought to know...

The advantage Ginny has over Hermione: Ginny isn't fuckall annoying in the books. You can't blame fanon on Hermione Hate. She's just as fucking pushy and demanding in canon as she is in fanon. True its an extreme exaggeration in fanfiction, but the fact remains...

Unless you want regularly scheduled sex in the missionary position with the lights off for the rest of your life, Hermione is failure and aids.

Ginny just doesn't appear. Hermione is constantly around, constanting bleating on about what Harry should do, and why house elves are people too. She "gets better" as the series goes on, true, but that is like saying because you dont have an outbreak, you're cured of herpes.

TL;DR: Ginny > Hermione.

 

C'mon Vash; don't you know that the quiet, studious types are the kinkiest in bed?

But you're right; years of missionary with no lights would be terrible. Almost as bad as having to fuck one's mom, amirite?

 

I enjoy the pairing if it blossoms out of initial conflict and dislike. For example, H/Hr sounds great to me in Silens' story at the moment.

That said, there are two cardinal sins at work here:

Harry who stops being Harry to be with Hermione (Bookworm!Harry)

Hermione who stops being Hermione to be with Harry (Corrupted, OOC!Hermione)

I prefer the latter, but both suck. You don't have to dumb down Hermione or make Harry smarter to make them compatible. Too many writers are insecure about the perceived intellectual differences between the two, and take action to 'equalize' them.

In reality, Harry doesn't have to study all day to be with Hermione. In fact, Hermione studying all day doesn't even neccessarily mean she's smarter. She could just be reading things for pleasure rather than strict magical ability. Maybe she's striving to become extremely knowledgeable about household charms.

 

I've always thought that Harry and Hermione loved each other in more of a brother/sister way than a romantic way. Hermione is one of Harry's two best friends in the books, and though she does have those moments when you look at her and go WTF?! (case in point: the already mentioned scene in which she rubs in the face that she was "half-right" after a funeral), she's still loyal to Harry through thick and thin.

I don't really see a relationship between the canon!Harry and canon!Hermione ever happening... but then I don't see any of the canon pairings as really working, based on what is known of the characters prior to the DH epilogue.

Though, if it's well-written, I have nothing against Harry/Hermione pairings in fanfiction. Practically any pairing can be made to work if well-written (excepting slash and anyone old enough to be Harry's mother) .The main problem with Harry/Hermione is that whenever I see Harry/Hermione, the first thing that comes to mind are the cliche Dumbledore & Weasley bashing Super!Harry fics in which Harry listens to Hermione above all else, which has pretty much turned me off from the pairing.

Personally, my favorite Harry/Hermione fic is Backwards Compatible (despite it being abandoned), which I'm pretty sure is in the library somewhere.

 

No reason the two can't be one and the same :awesome

 

The only problem with Harry/Hermione is that Harry has to grow up before they become a couple, unless you want a Harry/Herman.

Harry being dominated should be left to the world of slash.

Hermione being raped should be left in the pit of S&P. That was horrible, Amerision...

 

With a few exceptions, which I shall refrain from enumerating for the sake of everyone's mental health, I fail to see how the above could ever be anything but a very good thing, even if it is qualified by

---------- Post automerged at 00:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:11 ----------

I can just see it now:

 

As I said before, I'm not a H/Hr fan, but Hermione was one of the better characters in the books, in my humble opinion.

It's strange, 'cuz a lot of people seem to be anti-Hermione, stating her bossiness and house-elf issues. Y'know, in the real world, that's all pretty normal. Idealism and innovation. In university, at least, there are hundreds of groups that want to deal with unfairness, inequality, etc.

So, in fictitious reality, it's Hermione who's the better one in this ship. If I were a chick, there would be no way I'd even want to be in anything approaching a romantic relationship with Harry. He's a whiny, angsty, emo douchebag, who's grades mysteriously skyrocketed in his OWLs, despite his laziness. Here's a guy who would never apply himself to anything, including saving his own life. Not to mention he can't be reasoned with. The only thing he's got going for him is a shitload of money... and if you like being surrounded by magical cameras, his fame.

In short, I agree with Heir. It's canon-Harry that's the bad part about this relationship (or lack thereof).

 

This nearly made me spray whiskey all over my laptop, so thanks a billion there, Amer. H/Hr in Renegade Cause? I think the slight problem there (ie. the largest problem) is that this distrust between the two characters is something that exploded, and not an initial factor in the story. It would take a more mature character than either Harry or Hermione in that story to admit they did something wrong, and frankly, I don't see it happening.

Okay, before everyone reads the following tl,dr;, I advise all of you to remember the source. This is from a writer who does not typically like H/Hr, who considers Snape one of the most well-crafted characters in canon, and who has a reputation for writing Harry as a flat-out ass.

As I stated in my previous posts, Hermione's got her own reasons for SPEW and her other 'projects', most of which are buoyed by her own search for purpose and internal insecurities. If anything, I don't consider her behavior altruistic in the slightest. Sure, she's trying to help people, but in the fifth book, she's trying to help the house elves whether they wanted the help or not, regardless of what everyone else says. Terrified of actually being wrong, Hermione's stubborn persistence just shows her desperation. And I pose to you this question: if Hermione was really trying to innovate, where were the results of that innovation? The Marauders became Animagi, and Snape not only rewrote his potions textbook, but was inventing spells - can Hermione even reasonably compare herself to that?

Now, to the third paragraph, I really am going to take issue with your implication that Hermione would be the 'better' one in the ship. Excuse me, but working relationships thrive on equality while understanding the couple's differences, and while there might be 'dominant'/'submissive' personalities in one's relationship, the equality must be there. Making statements blatantly calling Hermione the better one in the relationship is wrong. And if anything, I think Harry would have better luck finding a partner than Hermione finding herself a boyfriend other than Ron or Harry.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not too much of a fan of Canon!Harry either, but realistically, a girl like Hermione would be utterly insufferable for the majority of guys. Rife with insecurity and masked by a bossy, know-it-all attitude, Hermione's personality would drive away a hell of a lot more guys than it would attract, and most forward-thinking, independent men wouldn't be able to deal Hermione's paradoxical and hypocritical behavior. Subsequently, in fanfic, where we strive to make Harry at least, if not more, competent than in canon, he would rely on Hermione less. If anything, this would make Hermione more insecure, and this trend would eventually be the death knoll of the relationship.

But even considering Canon!Harry for a second here, I still cannot realistically see him hooking up with Hermione (even though I fully expect there to be teasers of it in the DH movie, the smarmy little cunts...). Despite everything, Harry is at least secure in himself (certainly explains why he did jack shit to train in HBP). He's confident about his own strengths and weaknesses, and he has a certain charming steadfastness to his convictions - one of the reasons why Canon!Harry is an endearing, if infuriating, character. Hermione doesn't have this, one of the main reasons why a canon H/Hr should have Harry in a more dominant position in the relationship.

Maybe it's just me, but upon reflection, I really don't find Hermione to be all that likable as a canon character, at least compared to others. She's insecure, hypocritical, frustrating to associate with, and jealous to boot. Sure, she might be loyal and compassionate, but loyalty can be a double-edged sword sometimes (particularly blind loyalty, which, let's face it, Hermione has a tendency towards, particularly with Dumbledore and the Order). To top it off, if fanfic writers stuck with canon when developing this relationship... well, I just can't see it realistically working.

-Silens, proud Harry/Tonks and Harry/Su Li fan since 2006

 

I forgot one:

6. "The brightest witch of her age." This does not mean that Hermione won a contest and became the undisputed heavyweight super-duperest witch of her generation, "You're the brightest witch OF YOUR AGE that I've ever met" in context means "You're really smart--for a 14 year-old."

 

I don't remember the Harry/Fleur Community turning into trolling and flame-baiting.

Rofl, I'm loving the black and white fallacy. Badly done characterization fails, so the ship as a whole fails.

Give me another method to get Harry back on track from his years of laziness molded by Ron Weasley.

Don't lie. It's not character bashing when it's true. You hate the dumb twit as much as the rest of us. He's useless.

Half-Blood Prince was not the rule on HP characterization, but the exception. Harry does nothing for himself as usual, while Hermione takes her desire for Ron's cock out on Harry, and Ron progresses from shocked Quidditch hero to wannabe-stud.

Yeah, she has the hots for Ron. How can you be a Mary-Sue when you have that flaw under your belt?

So it's canon for Harry to be mentally slow and lazy, while it's canon for Hermione to be driven and intelligent... Yes, Sirius was exaggerating, but that doesn't explain her godly O.W.L.'s. More so, she also has a number of canon problems that even out her character and make her three-dimensional. Hell, any other pairing I could think of is impossible to flesh out completely, as the characters just weren't developed enough.

Really, try and find another pairing that isn't reliant on the author's interpretation, more so than canon. And if you can't, as you won't be able to, realize that Harry/Hermione is the only pairing that involves two, completely fleshed out characters.

 

Yeah, nobody who writes a fanfic throws their own spin on the characters, amirite?

 

@Silens - Your whole point seems to be that all Hermione's good points- her compassion, intelligence, and loyalty (I think you're forgetting bravery; she is a Gryffindor)- are only masks to hide her many insecurities, her jealousy, and her hypocrisy.

Thus, you say, Hermione/Harry would be a failing relationship, as Hermione is a mostly negative character.

It's odd, though, that your two examples for proving the overwhelming power of Hermione's insecurities are SPEW and HBP.

You act as though Hermione was at fault for being fourteen and trying to free a bunch of slaves. 'Oh, that bitch! Obviously, she only wanted to free them in order to make herself feel better! They didn't want to be freed! She wasn't trying to, you know, free sentient creatures being used like mules or anything...' :awesome You also act as though Hermione was at fault for going through JKR's Weasley obsession in which all the best characters- Hermione, Harry, Fleur, and even Luna- go apeshit/batshit for some Weasel.

You didn't hate Harry for it. You hated Ginny. Why is it that you hate Hermione rather than Ron?

Now, all Mary-Sue characters suck. Hermione as a Mary-Sue is just as bad. Often times, authors forget the insecurities, jealousy, and hypocrisy that are inherent in all human beings, including Hermione, Dumbledore, and Robo-Jesus. Thus, you get an Old Crow fic.

 

It's just strange to me that those are the adjectives that leap to your mind first when describing Hermione's personality. You just described Ron.

For me they would be swotty, earnest, stubborn, and loyal.

I think he meant that writers of other ships have to use more creative license to imagine a scenario that could plausibly bring Harry/Some Girl together. You have to change less about canon to write H/Hr than you do for any other ship.

 

@Snarf: You responded to my post without actually addressing most of the things I said.

For example:

Me: "Most Harmonians are raging internet assholes."
You: "Half Baked Plot sucked, so there."

 

I don't have a strong opinion about H/Hr for the reasons NW cited: though it's by no means predetermined, so much of what's out there with this ship is clichéd crap and I don't have the patience to read something unless it comes recommended. I just haven't read enough that's decent for it to capture my imagination.

It's odd--despite its obvious shortcomings, I could probably list without much effort ten Harry/Ginny stories that are readable by most of DLP. I'm having trouble coming up with a similar list for H/Hr, despite its being a ship of comparable size according to ff.net (13691 HP/GW; 14228 HP/HG).

Vox Corporis is decent, if a little over the top with the angst in places; cloneserpents's Harry Potter and the Sword of Gryffindor is entertaining if read in moderate doses. There's a short dimension traveling piece "Lily Potter and the Worst Holiday" or somesuch that's passable and another I vaguely remember with a super!Harry and necromancer Hermione. What other stories of this pairing should be read?

 

Backwards Compatible by Ruskbyte. My favourite H/Hr story.

Lori Summer's trilogy was also pretty good.