Well Taure, he obviously hadn't had his magical inheritance/maturity in GoF, you know that happened post OOTP. Thats why his shield charms are so different.

Magic system has always been iffy. Iirc, in GoF Harry spends a good portion of time (a week?) learning and practicing the summoning charm. Since it probably would have been very boring to write it out, or JKR just didn't care, we don't know the mechanics behind Harry's improvement in the summoning charm.

One could guess that performing a number of things, 'wanting' or envisioning the spell working, i.e. imagining the whatever you want flying towards you. Proper incantation spoken and proper wand movements.

But we also know that more accomplished Wizards (i.e. Professors, Snape/McGonagle/Dumbledore especially) tend to be shown doing magic silently, with wand movements that are described very vaguely as flicks or sweeping their wand at something. Is that because they have very good visualization? Maybe, who knows.

 

I think non-verbal magic provides a clue as to what's going on there, Ceebee. In non-verbal incantation you're mentally incanting rather than physically. This seems to indicate that the physical aspects of magic can be subsumed into a mental representation of the physical act when sufficiently advanced.

I would submit that this process is achieved via familiarisation with a spell/magic in general. Like when you play an instrument, if you play a piece enough you'll start performing it automatically, I would suggest that when you use a spell enough it becomes less conscious and more automatic, and it is at this point that you can start doing it non-verbally or without manifesting grand wand movements, because you know the spell so well that your mind can do it automatically without needing to use the physical sounds or movements.

And of course, a piano player who has been playing for years and has a high level of skill can pick up new pieces within his skill level very quickly, due to his familiarity with the instrument. I would say that the same occurs with magic: people very good at magic in general can pick up new spells to this "automatic" level quickly.

 

I see it all as being very intellectual and really a lot like mathematics. You start off by learning the basics - addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Then you start to build on that with things like negatives, fractions, decimals and percentages. Once you have the basics down you can start learning things like algebra, taking those rules you already know but leaving numbers out. You start to learn that you can plug different numbers into an equation to get a certain valuable number, then learn to rearrange equations so you can find the number you actually want to know. All of that can then be carried on in to trigonometery, calculus and all the messed up imaginary bullshit that follows.

For most people, a basic grasp of math is all they'll ever need. Just enough to be able to grab a pen and paper and work out a quick sum. The same goes for most wizards; it's enough for them to be able to pick up a wand and fire off a few simple spells. But a few wizards decide to dig into the advanced stuff. They're the more powerful ones.

Much like math, I think as you get better you start to learn the little tricks and shortcuts that make the more basic things faster and easier. Maybe you decide that instead of adding 9, it's easier for you to add 10 and subtract 1. Maybe you learn the answers to a few basic sums by heart, rather than having to work them out each time; like how everyone knows 2+2=4 without having to actually add the two numbers together.

I think Snape's annotated potions book is a decent example of this sort of thing, he wrote down lots of little tweaks to a potion that make potions easier to brew or produce a greater effect than the generally taught method.

Wizards like Dumbledore and Voldemort are powerful not because they're prodigies (though Dumbledore certainly was at Transfiguration, much like Snape was with Potions), but because they've had many long years to hone and practice their craft. They've found more of these mental shortcuts, they understand more about magic. They've graduated past reading music from the sheet in front of them and started writing their own solos. They can cast silently (or wandlessly) because they can do the more complex sums in their heads rather than counting out loud and using their fingers.


Or not. Back to lurking.

 

Sigh.

Which is why I prefix everything with statements like "I would suggest" and "I submit the idea that": they disclaim that I am not making any claim that the idea has direct canon justification (though I do claim that the idea is canon compatible).

I was quite clear in this in the post, I think.

Jesus, Oz. When was the last time you entered a thread without the intention to disagree violently with what I say, no matter what it is, no matter if you might have agreed with the content of the post had another person made it?

Other people who have problems with me on this site at least disagree with me intelligently and rationally, with the content of my posts, as shown by the fact that they occasionally agree with me (e.g. Xiph0 usually finds my opinions detestable, but agreed with me in the science discussion). You just have an indiscriminate knee-jerk reaction to anything I post.

Either you're really butthurt about something or you're just trying to look cool by being constantly belligerent towards me. Either way, grow up.

 

Definately not fatter than you.

 

I agree with the idea of there being more than a single attribute that determines a wizard's magical ability. Rather, it's an entire suite of attributes, as has been discussed already: some of which refer to the inborn talent of the wizard, and others refer to how eager they are to achieve their potential.

And I think this is supported to some degree in canon, where they talk about how certain wands are good for charms, or transfiguration, etc. It's fairly simple to suggest that the wizards themselves would be better at certain aspects of magic than others.

What separates Voldemort and Dumbledore from a normal 'powerful' wizard, IMO, is that they appear to be so well-rounded in their genius. I believe that if you look across the entire magical community, you'll find wizards who can practically match D/V in one magical task or another. But D/V are near the very top of ability for nearly all known branches of magic.

Furthermore, their talent seems to be matched by their understanding of how the different branches of magic can be used together, which makes them powerful at the 'applied' disciplines, e.g. dueling.

 

Did you really just quote a /Wiki/ page as a reliable reference?

You started off this post the right way, and by that I mean you searched for relevant existing threads, etc. But then you go off the rails with a bunch of fail-tastic stuff here.

1. It's Hawking, not Hawkins, as you've used at least twice. The man is a damn visionary; the least you could do is spell his name correctly.

2. The definition of a Squib is a non-magical person born to magical parents. What you propose, a Squib born to Muggle parents... would be a Muggle.

3. There is no mention anywhere in canon of magical fatigue, exhaustion or depletion, so theoretically, a wizard could keep on a-castin' on and on. But realistically, the mind will become drained and the will to cast the spells will dip and the next thing you know, the wizard isn't doing magic anymore, since he's asleep.

There are only two instances I can recall from all of canon where there's a physical effect of casting magic, and one very important instance of a non-effect. For the physical effects, there's Tonks' failing (or "affected", I believe is the actual word used) Metamorph abilities in HBP when she's pining for Remus Lupin and broken up about him rejecting her advances. For a second effect, there's Harry casting the Imperius on the goblin and the Death Eater in DH, when Harry feels the tingling effects of the spell and its overcoming the other person's will. Never described, however, is how Harry makes the Imperius'd person do what he wants.

The important non-effect also happens in DH, during the escape from Malfoy Manor. Harry grabs a handful of wands from Draco Malfoy and wtf-pwns Fenrir Grayback with an Expelliarmus. Specifically stated in the book is that he was "lifted off his feet by the triple spell, flew up into the ceiling, and then smashed to the ground." [emphasis mine] Rowling specifically points out that Greyback gets a triple-shot of Harry's spell, which is backed up by the spectacular effect it has on him, but there's no mention of any "drain" on Harry at all, no mention of any kind of "pull" he feels or anything. To me, that shows pretty clearly that the use of magic is a wholly separate issue from physical tiredness or exhaustion, aside from the mental aspect we've all talked about already.

 

Just assume that DH isn't canon. Let's face it, all sorts of crazy fucking shit happened there.

 

I'm sorry for error with his name, I'll go back and fix that up now. Wiki pages, while they are able to be edited and false crap spread, are still good for general barebone facts. I also highly doubt that if he wasn't a skilled programmer, that he would be where he was today, seeing as MS was formed thanks to his developments in prior works.

I am pretty convinced now that fatigue doesn't exist, but thanks for responding to that anyway.

The reason I asked about Squibs is as they are not referred to as muggles, which I find odd seeing as they ARE technically muggles. But that has also been cleared up, so thanks. I've pretty much got my question answered, so thanks guys.

Edit: Apparently I can't edit older posts.. Hm

 

Squibs see dementors. Muggles don't.

 

I wondered about that too, but Squibs clearly aren't exactly like Muggles; if they were, how the hell could Filch be the caretaker at Hogwarts? Were he the same as a Muggle in every regard, he wouldn't be able to see the school, right? All the Muggle-repelling charms or WTF-ever would keep him out.

I don't by any means want to derail this effed-up thread any further, but another point never addressed is what happens if and when a Muggleborn witch or wizard declines the opportunity to attend Hogwarts or Beauxbatons or wherever. I'm certain I've seen this discussed in other threads, but one would have to think that somewhere along the line there've been children or (more likely) parents who've told the WW Thanks-But-No-Thanks. What then? At a minimum, I'd expect the parents and the kid to be Obliviated, but what if the kid was naturally very talented? Remember how much control ten-year-old Tom Riddle had over his magic, and that was with no wand and zero training.

I think a good possible plot point would be that all the paranormal people who can't be explained away are just untrained witches and wizards manifesting their magic in an untrained, sort-of-unfocussed way.

/thread derail...

 

Well, there's obviously no way to derive the answer to whether or not magical fatigue exists from canon. There are just too few examples to draw on, but it is fun to speculate.

I definitely don't think there is some finite magical core of varying "power" in every wizard. It's not like magic is going to run out. (Though I'm not opposed to the idea that magic has a physical seat within the body. That's slightly different.)

I'm most inclined to agree with the others who have suggested that "magical fatigue" might really be more the result of mental/physical fatigue taking a tole on the wizard.


Oz is correct, by the way, about Arabella. Rowling stated in an interview that squibs can not, in fact, see dementors. (Which makes me wonder why no one in the court room in OoTP ever checked up on this little detail.)

 

She only said that Mrs. Figg didn't see them, not that she couldn't.

 

Appendectomies = squibs? Not exactly what I had in mind.

Krzaq, hmmmm, possibly. The exact quote from her website is:

I assume that this would mean Arabella was in the alleyway, where the Dementors were, to feel the "sensations" (which even muggles can do), so there is no reason for her not to see the Dementors, in my mind, unless she is incapable of doing so.

Really off topic. Sorry.

At Portus: I think the Tonks example is intriguing. It brings up the question of how emotional/mental state influences a wizard's ability to perform magic.