Well, I checked back a couple of pages, and couldn't find a thread on this. I'm sure there is somewhere further back, but meh. I'm not into necromancy.

I'm often frustrated by the way wizard duels are portrayed in fannon, which are completely unrealistic. I won't even go into the cannon duels, which are barely fleshed out at all, but I'm surprised that they're never improved upon.
These are patterns I see too much:

Tennis: The wizards stand 6 or more metres apart lobbing different coloured lights at each other. They dance around from side to side. The winner isn't the most skilled wizard, rather the best at gymnastics.
No. That's not true. The winner is still always the most 'powerful' wizard for some reason, even if he's 90+ and suffering from osteoporosis.
Usually shields come into play, and since the author is a retard who can't come up with something new, it's progeto or progeto maximus. I'll get into that later. The winner of this match either catches their opponent off guard, or if it's a critical fight, literally overpowers their opponents shield with raw power. Lame.

Transfiguration Duels:
The wizards throw armies of birds and/or wolves at each other. These kinds of battle are always very flashy, and always get dragged out two hours.
The winner is always the one the plot needs to win for the story to progress, no matter how many opportunities that the duelling wizards waste. Always.
If summoning a horde of birds was a legit fighting tactic, why not just spam millions of them to peck your enemy to death? A thousand crows would work like a school of piranha against someone who just throws balls of light at you, that aforementioned crows would just absorb as if it weren't even there.
These kind of wizards are not limited by the capacity of the human mind.
Why, just the other day, I imagined 50 birds, down to every detail/speck that would be required to summon them. Then I painted that picture. In a second. (I've always thought that summoning is unreasonable. Despite being cool, only someone with photographic memory of the quality of Tesla's could possibly perform it. I guess transfiguration is similar, but I could probably picture a needle well enough to turn a matchstick into one.)

I'm confused by the way shield spells are often potrayed... Like something out of Startrek where the shield slowly dies down in power over time. I would have always thought that a shield spell would stop every spell that hits it as long as its active, and as long as the spell isn't of a certain calibre.
It's not a question of "Shields fade with time and need to be recast." No. Just like a wizard can enchant an object to remain enchanted permanently, a permanent shielding spell should anchor itself on the wizards own magic, and shouldn't weaken until the wizard runs out of magic. Since this doesn't happen, the only way to overcome such as spell should be to cast a spell that's complexity over-matches it.
On the other hand, Progeto isn't a permanent shield. It only works for as long as the wizard is channelling it, and while channelling, he can cast nothing else.
Voldemort's golden shield would probably stop every spell Harry could throw at it, but would require a kind of complexity/knowledge to cast that couldn't be duplicated without years of practice. Assuming I believed in magic reserves, which I don't, a super-powered stupefy wouldn't cut it, as anchored to Voldemort's magic, the spell would just cause the shield to use more magic until it was able to match the spells power.
Seeing how casting a spell doesn't exhaust anyone, having a shield shouldn't either.

What we never see is battlefield control. Those of you who've played Dungeons and Dragons, or a similar table top rpg will understand, that "grease" which covers a 10ft in diameter space with oil, is one of the most useful spells in the game. Put a grease spell under your opponent and he falls over. Sure he can counter your spell, but he can't block it with a self-only shield, and it'll take him precious immobile time to do so. A grease spell followed by AK = almost sure death, as they can't dodge while they counter the first spell or else they'll fall over.
Suddenly, wizards have to worry about making sure the space around them is safe, as well as countering person to person spells, as well as taking his opponent out if he neglects to cover himself. Not just dancing while the author fills time before they can say, "Suddenly, Harry gets LUCKY!"
Just like in DnD though, at high levels, surroundings count less and less, as the golden shield would likely counter any minor annoyances/gambits without conscious effort. Only two wizards in HP canon have shown their ability to fight at that level. Despite this, nothing fixes an enemy quite like blasting the floor beneath their feet and tearing them to shreds with marble shrapnel.

Neither do we see anyone getting up close. Imagine a wizard that runs up to his enemy, pushes his wand out of the way like a swordsman would, then kicks him. This could be countered by his opponent easily. It's much easier to hit a target coming towards you than a stationary target that goes from side to side.

 

So... your point is exactly what? That canon magical combat sucks?

Also, it's fanon, not fannon. Please.

And trying to mix DnD to HP? Yeah, no.

Also, the only actual 'duel' we see is in Lockhart's dueling club, beetween second years. And Voldemort's mockery one at the graveyard. Other than that, it's just fighting.

I do think that magical duels in HPverse could be damn epic, with the more creative and diverse wizard the winner, but shame it isn't so.

 

Well...

That's my point. Congratulations. I also hoped to explain why it isn't so, as well as comment on what I want.

Yes. That's exactly what I'm trying to do. I reckon we should have wizards casting Fireball, Chain-lightening and Meteor Swarm next too.[/sarcasm]
No. I was using it as a comparison. People who play DnD usually use tactics to win, rather than just sending their character to stand in front of the enemy while they take turns swinging at each other.

I call troll.

 

I-wait, what? You call troll on yourself?

 

>my face when someone called troll on himself.

wat.

 

Well, he did miss out the second duel between Harry and Voldemort, at the end of DH, but you could argue about whether that's a duel or not - they just bitch at each other, before Voldemort gets killed because his wand doesn't work. Oh, and I suppose the end of HBP with Harry getting smacked around by Snape, and if you really want to stretch it then Harry cutting Draco to shreds. But the same arguement follows those. All the other action scenes have more than two people, which means they aren't duels.

Also, calling troll for a difference of opinion/mistake? Wow.

OT: yeah, a lot of fanon (only one n, please note) duels suck. A lot of fanon sucks full stop, hence the existence of this site. You'll actually find some great action scenes here, if you haven't already. Not entirely sure why this needed to be restated, but it's not like you're wrong.

Oh, and it's protego, not progeto.

 

I called troll under the assumption that no one would be so pedantic as to only use the term duel to be a semi-organised match between two parties.
I used it to describe all fighting in HP, because it's a shinier word than fighting.

 

Duel:

Well, HP duels sure as hell don't involve planes or warships, so...

 

Good god, I can't even begin to respond to some of this stuff. Half of it is strawman anyway. Clearly you've been reading bad fanfic, and have a selective memory when it comes to canon.

Also, you can't have looked very hard, because your essential point - "HP magic should be more 'epic'" - is covered in a recent thread just 2 below this one.

On The Majesty and Grandeur of Magic

 

So, OP: why did you make a thread about this, exactly?

Problem: canon/fanon "duels" (we're using your all-encompasing definition, not the actual one - because how dare we) suck.

Solution: Taure covered the canon angle -

- but in terms of fanon...

(a) read stories that don't suck.
(b) write stories with duels that don't suck.

 

Meh, I can't argue with that. Don't take it personally though. It's not like I'm dissing your stories...
I'm trying to make a construct on why so many of the fight scenes in fannon stories suck. I was hoping that my actual points would be countered, or elaborated on rather than having spelling mistakes thrust in my face.
I wasn't referring to canon at all. Why would I? Just look at the threads in your own forum that tear its logical discrepancies to shreds.

Why even post at all? Just post this as a reply to every story based question. I'm sure it qualifies.

 

tl;dr

Action scenes are very difficult to write. Even if you take imagination out of the equation (the lack of which seems to bother you) simply the technical aspect of striking the balance between description and pace is near impossible.

So I think that good 'action' scenes much like 'comical' scenes are going to be hard to find because they are simply very demanding to write.

Beyond that I'd recommend Shezza for action scenes. He has a flair for them.

And. MAN THE FANNONS!!

 

With all due respect to Shezza, I think his action scenes suffer from a lack of emotional investment. The way he imagines them to take place is so overwhelmingly destructive it's difficult to really care for anything that happens, especially when you know Harry can get have his body blown to bits and still survive, thanks to a fallen Angel perching on his shoulder.

I really can't remember anyone having fight scenes that I particularly enjoy (I like battles involving the environment itself - I once wrote Harry killing a combusting (long story) Death Eater by transfiguring the room airtight and relying on the fire to extinguish all the Oxygen - as well as winning through trickery and dirty tactics).

The one example that stands out from my memory is RustyRed's Ectomancer, where Harry beat a troll by banishing rusty nails he had found in the floor into its head. Of course, I jizz on everything in that story, so it may not be a fair comparison.

tl;dr - I don't like duels, I like fights. Who the fuck wants to read two stuffy wizards following protocol and clanging spells against each other as if they're fencing? I want nitty gritty, dirty, all or nothing brawls.

 

Agreed. Best combat scenes I've seen pretty much anywhere are in the Denarian series, Wastelands of Time, and tentatively The Skitterleap. Take a look at those if you want good combat scenes. Hell, take a look at some the duels in Renegade Cause - they might be more to your liking.

Also, HP fighting magic is NOT the same as D&D fighting magic. Considering I've played a high-level wizard in D&D and written fics in D&D-esque worlds (Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance), when it comes down to it, most of those fights are buffs, counterspells, and saving throws. HP magic is a lot faster, grittier, and less about those grandoise spells.

 

With that I totally agree, but there are some similarities, in that both contain "point and click" spells without any kind of "Energy Manipulation" system like so many other magic systems.'
I don't really want to see fireballs being thrown at each other, but say collapsing the roof over your opponents head, or liquefying the ground under him rather than throwing direct damage spells back and forth would be much more interesting than say:

I'm always bored by this kind of ambiguous fight, where you aren't really sure what's going on. Pacing is an issue I know, but I'd rather a long, elaborate fight than one where the author puts, "The two exchanged curses, dancing back and forth." Which implies that the fight goes on for more than a minute, which is ridiculous considering that most hand-to-hand fighting is over in several seconds. We're talking ranged weapons vs dodging. It's not gunna happen, and if it does happen, then you're doing something wrong. Try getting closer to your enemy. Maybe use a wide area attack to force him to where you want to go.

 

Seriousely bro, Im gunna quote this once more incase you didn't see it the first time someone did.

 

Okay, I'll bite.

Most duels/fights in fanon suck because there is no point of reference, or they rely too much on the ones that do exist. For the former, name something in real life that acts as both an active offensive, defensive, and reflective weapon.

Coming up with zilch ? Exactly.

There's no gun, for example, that (a) shoots bullets, (b) shields or reflects incoming bullets, or (c) let's you shoot bullets into yourself that heal the effects of the bullets that struck you - "counter-bullets," if you will. People take for granted how hard it is to put something they imagine into words without any real frame of reference - they simply put words to paper, and let their minds fill in the gaps, so what appears obvious and (dare I say it) well thought out to them, remains woefully inadequate to anyone who's experienced the work of talented authors.

On the other hand, you have people who delve too much into the available frames of reference: hand-to-hand combat, weaponry, and gun fights. That's why wandless magic is so much fun: you don't have to think about wand movements when Harry can just get "rearrry angwree," make a fiiiiiist, and wandlessly crush Malfoy's windpipe/blast him into a wall/turn into a gynandromorphous being. No wand gestures to think about, no physicality to really consider (since he never gets tired, thanks to growth potions and loads of running over the summer. And meditation.), so everything just works in the writer's mind. Weapons are easy to understand, so bad authors just make them magical and shit works out that way, too. Raise your hand if you've read a fic where Voldemort + legions of his Death Eaters were defeated by a Gryffindor sword-wielding Harry.

(If your hand's not up, fuck you and your good fortune.)

I don't think I have to get into the way that hand-to-hand combat is mangled (see any fic with the old "Hogwarts Express Harry/Draco confrontation that ends in a leap from one's seat into a flying sidekick or phoenix punch" gag), but you get my point: by "using" what they know of fighting irl, they get lazy to the point that even translating what they supposedly know into the HP-verse gets mangled as well.

The reason I outright dismissed this line of discussion (and still do) is because figuring out why bad writers fuck up certain aspects of a story (be it combat, romance, dialogue, whatever) in this forum, of all places, is ridiculous. No one here reads those kinds of stories; we'll start to read them, realize that they suck, and click the 'X' in the corner. There's a library full of stories that do not suck. There are authors here contributing above-average work to that library at a fairly healthy rate. There's no reason to address the issue at all, given the above reasons.

The only real reason I can think of to feel bothered by the proliferation of bad-fight fics, is your own reluctance to put any effort into writing a fic that meets your standards. Because if more writers realized how shitty their fight scenes were, there'd be more fics with good fight scenes - which means you wouldn't have to contribute anything, and simply reap the benefits.

Even if you could make the mass of shitty writers see the error of their ways, again, this isn't the place to do it; you're basically preaching to the choir lol.

 

Offtopic- Come on son :awesome

Ontopic- I believe this has already been said but I say it regardless Read better stories that don't suck.

 

^^Torak, I like your new avatar.

... and OP? Seriously, just read the fight between Harry and Dumbledore in Nuhuh's Catharsis, Harry's fights against Chilotha and the Greater Daemon in Bungle in the Jungle by JBern, and most of Harry's fights in DobbyElfLord's Altered Destinies, if I remember correctly. Those should give you an idea for good magical fights.