He would have up and left since he did not want to enter NN from his apartment. Sure, you might argue that this is not explicitly said, but on the other hand the possibility is not denied either so there is no actual written inconsistency. It can easily be said that during those two hours, Harry walked outside, told the others that he was going to a shop or something, jumped to NN and did the spell, and then jumped back to the real world and returned to the lab with Morgan&Ana being none the wiser.


Anyway, I want to talk about something else now. This possibility is something that someone on the Butcher forums mentioned and I found it interesting enough to bring up the possibility here in DLP for those who don't read Butchers forums.

The god Odin seems to like Harry, he offers advice and help, and even openly says that he respects Harry. And just before that meeting, we see people who Gard the Valkyrie refers as "Einherjar".

Wiki says this about them:

However in Changes these Einherjar guys seem to be active in the real world. Heck Marcone hired some during the attack on the Raith Deeps. They also play cards and sleep and generally appear to be pretty must alive.

We also have a familiar female voice tell Harry to "hush" when he is dying. And we know that Gard is Valkyrie who can sense the deaths of warriors, and who is a friend of Harry.

So, is it possible that Harry dies, only to have Gard as a Valkyrie take him to Odin (Harry is certainly a warrior), and have Odin who likes and respects Harry bring him back as one of these Einherjar, allowing Harry to return to the world.

 

The problem with this is that Harry didn't actually die on the field of the battle, which is basically the requirement for entrance to Valhalla. No one chooses the Einherjar, unfortunately. They all are one of the fallen heroes who have died in battle. That's why the Vikings made such a big deal about death in combat. It was quite literally the difference between Valhalla and Hel.

I'm sure Butcher could take some creative license here if that's what he wants, and honestly I would love it, what with being such a huge Norse myth nerd, but I don't see it as likely.

 

I understood her to be referring to the time that Harry ate that poison mushroom towards the end of Grave Peril to avoid Lea's bargain. Death Angel = Death?

As for him getting out of this, well yea thats what he seems to do

Edit: I just realized how funny that first sentence sounds... or maybe I just need sleep.

 

You may be on to something. If that shot did kill him, even for a second, technically he would be dead. And when he dies the mantle snaps back to the nearest Queen. I wish we knew what that train meant. There has to be a specific reason Harry would hear that of all times. And I refuse to imagine any Kings Cross/DeathlyHallows business.

 

First of all, Odin seems to respect Harry so I could see him being willing to "fudge" the rules a bit. If he were to order Gard to get Harry, you really think she would talk back?

Secondly, Butcher has subtly changed things about mythology before, it could easily be said that Harry was on a field of battle since he was actually in a fight with the shooter, even if that fight was rather one-sided

Or it could be said that after everything Harry has done in that city, the entire Chigaco is a field of battle for Harry. Or any number of ways this could be explained without difficulty.

In truth I too doubt it will actually happen like this, but I do think it is an interesting idea. And who knows, anything is possible.

Maybe not a close friend, but they are close associates at least. They have faced battle together, Harry knows her well enough to call her by her first name and she has actually kissed him. Close enough. Besides, if true, not being an incredibly intimate friend actually supports the idea.

When Harry hears the female voice at the end, it is a familiar one, but one he does instantly recognize. You could say that if it had been Murphy for instance, Harry would have recognized it instantly. Gard the Valkyrie's voice on the other hand could well be familiar, but not instantly recognizable by voice alone.

The whole death thing has nothing to do with Uriel. I think Mab refers to what happened in the third book, when Harry foiled Lea by ingesting poison and taking advantage of her status as his godmother and the deal she had made with his mother. Had Lea not given in, she would have caused Harry's death which would have been a violation of a bargain and a major NONO for the sidhe.

What Mab is suggesting here is the possibility that Harry would take advantage of the winter knights power to rescue Maggie, and then commit suicide so he won't have to pay the price or do any of the nasty stuff a winter knight is supposed to do.

However Harry cannot be held responsible or in violation of any bargain if someone ELSE kills him without his agreement. So if Odin were to bring him back from this, Mab could do little since technically it was not Harry who violated the deal. Harry had nothing to do with being shot, nor will he (obviously) have anything to do with the way he will come back. Mab would probably be pissed, but could do little since this would be a fair loop-hole. Maybe not in the spirit of the deal, but as we know for the sidhe it is only the letter of the deal that matters.

 

Damnit, now you've got me all wanting a crazy story where Harry's dragged to Valhalla and somehow or other gets his hands on Gungnir, Mjolnir or even Megingjoro, and then comes back to Midgard and proceeds to kick ass.

 

Heh, Odin turned Huginn and Muninn into his secretaries. I presume they now do some of their information gathering through their computers.

 

Wow, just finished it... wow.

Awesome. I got to page 23 of this thread without seeing the answer to the one question i had, so i'm just gonna go ahead and post it.

Did i just miss it, or was there absolutely no explanation over that assassination attempt on harry in the church (by stevie b if i remember correctly) and the fact that it was apparently susan who ordered it???

also,

FUCKING CLIFFHANGERS!

 

I think the implication was that it was Arianna wearing a flesh mask to look like Susan... I don't think Harry brought it up with Susan, he just reasoned it out in his head.

 

Duchess Arianna can change herself to look like anyone, Susan being locked up at the time implied that Harry's conjecture in the church (that it was Arianna taking Susan's shape) was correct. At least that's how I took it.



As far as the feminine voice in Harry's head? Come on, it has to be his mother. He JUST received her gift, so it's quite clear that Harry is:
A) Not completely dead.
B) Going to start off the next book getting his ass kicked.

You don't visit angels, unleash destruction upon an entire race, become a knight for a faerie queen only to be shot, fall into the water and die. Harry's been shot in the water before, not really surprised it happened again.

I think the shot to the chest was either the White Council handling Harry before he becomes a threat thanks to his Winter Knight status, Kincaid being hired for the same, Mab fucking with him, or setting up the next book for a struggle against Marcone.

As a side note, is anyone else curious why Odin indirectly supports Marcone by allowing Gard to work for him so long? In fact the whole Odin scenario kind of bugs me. Denarians attempting to kill his employees with no reaction out of him or him having a company that supports criminals. I'm not saying he's a saint but his actions implied a kind of attitude towards the good of others, not to supporting criminals.

 

Odin resurrecting Harry as an e-thing is a bit farfetched imo. Will have something to do with the older characters we know, I think.

 

This book is a Big. Fucking. Deal.

I thought it mentioned there were various coups and government chaos?

LMFAO!

Thats a great fucking idea I hadn't considered. Fae works differently he's mentioned constantly. Send him to a spot where he can't die of his wounds, or you know, Mab could instantly heal him, just like Lea did. Which is what I'm expecting. He spends a decade or three inside Fae in an area where time moves much faster. 30 years to him, not so much outside.

HA! Yeah, but he did say Summer Knights tend to be killed by Winter.

Didn't think of it that way, awesome point.


---

Susan going out like that was amazing, the daughter plot device was weak. She's probably going to be like a Star trek plot device. BIG MAJOR EVENT! UNIVERSE CHANGING! And then when they get through it, it's never brought up again. Butcher can't have her kidnapped again, it'd just be bad story telling.

I wanted to see Lash back before I wanted to see him as a Knight. I'd hoped he'd take up one of the Swords. He agonizes about the choice as he should. Toot was awesome as usual. Didn't seem to be any real perks other then a small boost to the spell he used from being a Knight though.

Lea guarding him from the Fae side was cool, doesn't make sense why Butcher would mention things going at Harry from the Nevernever though, if he's warded his house up to the gills.

Murphy as a Knight is expected, good to see him just fucking do it. Need to tone back on the crazy archangel dialouge. Michael only had something else talking through him what once? Murphy seems like she'd of kept the sword, but reasoned it away by thinking she'd have an angel riding shotgun.

Martin. Boring character. AWESOME CHARACTER. Fucking SURPRISE he's an epic sleeper.

Harry telling the Merlin to bring it.

Lea reminding Harry not to let Mab bring him to the Stone Table. Why? She was trying to get him to not be the Knight, or ?

Sanya. Fucking win, FUNNY. You hit that.

Grey council doing something was good, Odin evidentally is with them? Seems like they should of had a much easier time then. Hope to see the White Council gone shortly.

The crazy vamps were funny

==What I didn't like==

Where the fuck was mention of Demonreach? He could of tapped whatever was there.

Harry uses some power. OMFGWTF exhausted. Harry used a fuck load more power. Harry is okay. Harry uses a lot less power on a totally different day, omg sleeeeeeepppptime. It's not consistent, annoying, and makes no sense. He was raging at the start and threw soulfire in. Okay, that takes more out of him. But them he says emotion fueled spells are nutso strong and run differently then normal stuff. Stop having the boy get tired only when you need to show how desperate his fight is.

Thomas. He was supposed to be back to being mostly Raith like, here he's nearly normal Thomas again. He almost eats Molly, but then he's left to guard her when she's wounded... which should of sent him berserk, predator instincts and all. Made no sense.

Mouse talking was weird. He's addressed as "demon" instead of something you'd think a foo-dog would be addressed as. I don't know what, but demon doesn't fit. He "won" Dresden? Nicodemus, among others, have freaked out over Mouse. That being said it was funny as shit, and Lea seemed to regard him as a threat. What the fuck is he really?

Him and Susan/Murphy's sexual charge. Makes no sense with what's going on. Too light hearted and laid back in some big sections when he should be going apeshit.

Harry going from being laid back, to claiming he'd be ready to do the Darkhallow, then he seems to have a problem with Eb killing 200 people with magic. While his friends, and him, are slaughtering everything in sight that's attacking him. Has he ever killed a vanilla mortal with magic before in self defense other then Justin?

Erlking was a waste, it felt like he just was making everyone do cameos. I expected to see Elaine at some point.

Merlin made no sense. The man has spent the whole of the series so far with his head on the sand, sandbagging shit. Now all of a sudden he's locked and loaded and plotting. Not in character with what we've seen so far.

I will say this. I will only buy hardcovers of this series from now on. The guy deserves the extra money for the fucking balls he has to take a loved series and just totally change shit up. I hate that it took Harry this long to go the hell off, but it was worth it. I devoured this book in a day, only getting 15 minutes sleep to finish it. I was so amped from being excited over the end half of the book I didn't sleep.

I expect him to be fine, I hope Butcher won't pull a Raistlin and borderline cripple the guy to make him angsty. It was acceptable with the accept of the Knight, how he got hurt was fucking LAME though. Falling off a ladder? Really? He can get chucked through the air constantly... and he falls off a ladder and lames himself.... no.

I also hope it wasn't a halfass way of resetting the Knighthood. If he technically dies for a minute or so, wouldn't the power pass to the nearest vessel of Winter? I doubt when the rules were laid down, defibralators and CPR were taken into account. If it left him and passed to the nearest vessel, Maeve shot his ass.

And where the hell did the coin go that Gard stole?

 

Almost certainly. It's just a fun idea.

I've got this epic image in my mind of Harry fighting the Jormungandr alongside Thor or somesuch. And it's amazing.

 

Likely we will hear something of her, but she won't play any significant role. Except maybe in the final books when she is presumably old enough. Unless there is a big timeskip or something in which case we might see her sooner.

I figured maybe it was Uriel doing what little he could to help out by messing with the minds of the reds. During the whole discussion with Harry he did seem really uncomfortable with the fact that he could not heal Harry, especially when Harry practically begged for help.

Maybe there is some loop-hole in the rules that made it possible for him to act through the sword/knight and help Harry that way.

More likely Odin just joined in for this particular attack since he seems to dislike the Reds.

The Gatekeeper told him that it would be dangerous and "change" Harry, whatever that means. And besides you can hardly put Demonreach to your pocket and carry it to south-america.

I thought it was less because he was upset at Eb killing, and more that he found it really strange to see the first law violated in such huge quantities in front of him. The same law that got him into trouble with the council in the first place.

I figure had Eb pulled out a minigun and moved them all down with bullets he would have been less shocked. Okay, maybe that is a bad example but you know what I mean.

Agreed, this is what that whole scene felt like for me too. A cameo.

Actually I thought this made perfect sense. Remember that just in last book, we learned that Peabody has been messing with his mind in a major way. I thought this was a clue that Merlins "head in a sand" attitude was caused by Peabody and now that that influence has ended, Merlin and the rest of the SC has started to return to their normal selves.

I could imagine Merlin wondering if his too-defensive attitude during the war was because Peabody wanted him to act that way, and choosing to be more aggressive as a result for example.

I suspect you need a fullblown death here. A "death" that you can be revived with with CPR is no real death at all.

It has not come into play just yet. I expected Harry to ask Odin about it, but I guess you could say he had other things in his mind what with his daughter and learning about the bloodcurse etc.

 

Harry is going to be staying dead for awhile it seems, as the title of Book 13 is going to be Ghost Story and according to his editors, he has three chapters down packed so far.

 

Uh, all this Arlking stuff is kind of odd, but I don't think it was a waste in the slightest. Nor a cameo just for the sake of it. The books' called 'Changes' and yeah, there were a lot of them this being another one I think.

Erlking threatened to kill Harry the next time he saw him, which happened to be in his home with his own little Goblin horde. Seeing as Harry knew his way through the Ways, he must've had some idea that opening a way in the FBI would head into the Erlkings lair.

Butcher either overlooked it, or left it out as part of the surprise. Erlking screwed up with the Faerie talk and Dresden leaped on it. Better to duel for your life against Red Court than end up as another bloodstain on the floor in the Erlkings lair. Dresden must have had some idea where he'd come out, if not knowing completely.

I think he scene was used to show that the Erlking still wishes to go after Harry, but cannot now that Harry's also a servant of Winter (Just me here, was it ever clarified that the Erlking served a specific Court? I thought he was a Wildfae?) - It could imply future clashes, or maybe the Erlking will call it neutral, I don't know, I just don't think the Erlking scene was entirely pointless like everyone else seems to believe.

 

It's said quite clearly that Dresden doesn't actually know where the FBI building linked to in the Nevernever. He jumped blindly through, and hoped he didn't fall into a sea of acid.

The scene was almost certainly a cameo, though it might have also been serving a higher purpose. We can't actually know until later in the story. Very little of any apparent import happened in that scene though. It merely served to delay Susan and Harry, and could have been replaced by just about anything.

It was completely random and nothing really came of it (yet).

 

Hmm, I don't think that scene was entirely without purpose. It got rid of the Ick and the Eebs.

 

Well yea, but you could have easily replaced the whole thing with them appearing in the Nevernever over a bottomless lake of acid, or in some crazy forest thing, or, probably more fitting, a medieval dungeon-esque setting, and they could have a punch out right there, win the fight, and leave again.

It's not so much the events in the scene that are useless as the location and characters. It just felt contrived and like it only happened so we could see the Erlking again.

I mean really, Erlking is on par with Mab. What the hell is he doing that allows any random mortal to just walk right into his home from a fairly populated building? It would be kinda like there being a Way directly into the heart of Arctis Tor. Mab would never allow for that sort of exploitable weakness, and I can't imagine the Erlking is dumb enough to let it exist too.