This is also a nerf in disguise. You can't repair Thors with as many SCVs anymore. A fully "repaired" Thor is fucking impossible to kill. Also, you shouldn't be trying to kill a Thor with melee units. For P, you should be using Immortals, and for Z...I don't know what Z unit does what, honestly. I'm doubting the Thor counter is Zerglings, anyways.

That being said, I kinda understand the Roach nerf; basically, they're making roaches less desirable in the hopes that people will actually use the Ultralisk without, y'know, buffing the Ultralisk. That being said, they're still missing the point about why people refuse to use the Ultralisk. =\

Also: what the fuck at the forge nerf indeed. Were people actually having trouble with that?

EDIT: Interesting. Apparently melee units ARE the intended counter for Thors...? How strange. Either way, this shouldn't be too big of a deal.

EDIT THE SECOND: Wow, Thors really ARE significantly smaller. They're still big, though, so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

You can read about that here.
The official forum now has explanations for the changes. (They're doing it for every patch now.)

 

Thor patch doesn't really change a lot. They're still slow, just not as bulky. Marine/tank/viking combo should still be a lot more flexible and devastating.

 

Lost another placement match today...This guy was rather good. He massed vikings and started sniping out my overlords. (I think he had them in groups of like 15, because my overlords would die instantly.) Being oversupply the entire game was sucky. What really sucked is even though I had the hydras to manage the vikings, those bitches are slow, even on creep. Every time I made an expo, he'd end up finding it within 10 seconds (we're on a 4-player map...wtf is up with that?) and his vikings would snipe my overlord, then land and rape my hatch. All before my hydras could get halfway to the expo.

In the end, I guess he quit doing vikings when I was able to kill them all rather quickly (gogo hydra attack upgrades), and went m+m+m. Not only that, but he had a bunch of Hellions. VS my hydra/ling army, I stood no chance.

Are roaches the counter to Hellions? Starcraft Source doesn't have any zerg units listed under "Weak Against". I know flying units are, but I couldn't be assed to get a spire up. Plus, he had vikings out the ass most of the time...my overlords were doing bad enough, forget mutas. Being oversupply all the time was a bitch. I am getting better at macro...I usually no longer have a shit-ton of left over minerals.

Edit: Infestors are my new favorite unit. Green goo all over = nothing can attack me.

Anyone up for some 2v2? I'm usually on around 11pm Central until I fall over asleep.

 

I've never really had mass vikings used against me before so I have no idea what to do about it O_O.

 

The protoss nerf is just for low level players (like me) I think. I personally haven't had issues with it, but I think it's to try and prevent/weaken cannon rushes. Only thing that makes any sense to me.

 

...I'm having a fucking nerd rage.

They base this roach nerf on a 200 vs 200 battle? If a person can even get to 200 units, then there's seriously something wrong with their opponent, period. They better take this nerf off or at least return some of the roach buffs because this is seriously fucked up.

 

@Militis:
It's difficult to say without the actual replay, but if your opponent is going heavy air you shouldn't have your ovies spread all over the map. Just bunch them up inside your base guarded by anti air. If they get jumped anyway ovie speed upgrade is good, at the cheap cost it should be an automatic upgrade the moment you hit lair tech. Remember vikings are slow as shit.

Also if he was rolling so many vikings his ground army should have been small so you'd be able to afford guarding expansions with a few hydras until base defence is set up. Burrowed lings for vision if you're bunkering in.

If you want increased speed but your overlords are getting sniped, use the queen's tumor to spread creep all over the map instead.

As for countering hellions, it's either air or roaches. Or in a pinch fungal growth them and kill with lings/hydras. If the game goes on long enough, tech broodlords because they chew through all ground.


@Tehlaziboi
At higher levels it's not unusual to sit at 3+ expansions. 4 hatcheries + extra hatcheries with queens will pump out sick sick amounts of units.

 

Roaches are not, and have never been 1 supply units. Cry more. I mean, for fuck's sake; I don't cry about the fact that Zealots- my basic army unit- is 2 supply. In fact, you know what Protoss units are 1 supply? Probes and observers. Zerg has units that are LESS THAN ONE SUPPLY and you're crying about Roaches being raised slightly?

Jesus fuck. Make an extra overlord or two. It's not like they're useless beyond being flying, moving supply depots.

EDIT: For the record, I realize the difference in playstyle between the two races. It is very severe. That does not change my point any.

 

I've just stopped using roaches for early game and transition from lings straight to mutas or hydras. I'll get roaches maybe as a late game damage soaker but thats about it. So far there hasn't been a need for me to get a tier 1.5 unit that costs 2 food and can get hard countered to uselessness. Banelings and speedlings are much more useful and mobile.

 

Roaches are supposed to be the early game damage soaker, but not something you're supposed to mass. Basically, they want you to use roaches as meat shields for your hydras (and lings, though that might not really work out too well) until you get ultralisks, which are the late game damage-soaker. Unfortunately, Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that Ultralisks are too big and too slow. They realized (one of those things) with Thors. =\

 

I'm really enjoying the harassing ability of protoss air!

 

So. I keep on losing, and I feel like I'm not getting any better. No matter how many guides, replays I watch, they're not helping. Kind of discouraging. Anyone willing to help a poor little scrub like me?

 

Mass Vikings counter with (Marines + Maruader) or Thors/ Hydras+Lings(Since you know they can land...)/ Stalkers and Sentries I think.

I've seen Roach+ ling rushes. Zealots/Stalker + MM would usually counter that pretty well but only in the same or more numbers.

Zerg's thor counter is the infestor I think... neural parasite on thors and oops. Now they have one less thor. Cept this requires some micro but if you hotkey the group and remember the hotkey for parasite, you're good to go.

 

Pretty much QFT on all points. Raising roach supply shouldn't be a big deal. If they are then you're not playing quality matches. Designing rushes around the damage roaches deal isn't a good strat against a decent player.

I dunno why anyone even CARES about the roach nerf. People should be more pissed about the uselessness of ultras. Or the STILL annoying as shit reaver rushes. Or void rays in general. Roaches are nice, don't get me wrong. But an insignificant nerf like that shouldn't affect anyone's gameplay too excessively.

I'm personally a fan of toss. I feel like they're the most versatile overall, if not most expensive.


There's still clearly a lot of work to be done.

A) 1v1 and 2v2 games are decided on the rush too often. If your's fails or you don't properly react to one, you'll likely lose, even if it's a insignificant rush. This is fun right now for me, as this is kinda the basis for my original play in SC. But I don't think a rts will have sustained popularity when there literally is a best way to win.
B) FFA, while a blast, is kind of a wreck. People stay afraid to attack each other for fear of the other player(s) massing armies. And if they do attack and someone's massing, they'll lose. So a lot of the games I've played ended with everyone getting roughly three expansions and capped on armies before trying a major offensive, involving bases getting completely wiped out regardless of your army's status. I've attacked and been attacked so many times where it's a race to kill the other's base before he finishes off my tech.

The only solution I see is making the standard defenses stronger (let's face it, cannons are pathetic in this, as are turrets). Right now it's impossible to turtle in, which is a good thing. But base defense if your army moves out should/has to be so weak in order to attack effectively. I don't wanna see two hours turtle games but I also don't like eight games in a row with a 6 minute rush.

 

I've never really had a problem with rushes at 1v1. At 2v2, I manage to play okay against rushes even if they double rush me. For example I played a 2v2 with Solomon tonight where our opponents were both random. They turned out to both be zerg and decided to double ling rush me, but it didn't really even do anything.

 

I, on the other hand, was not as lucky.

 

Tonight was not my night. That's all there really is to say about it.

 

Ouch that sucks. I played another game with a friend of mine and he got early pushed with a gigantic group of zealots and marine/marauders. He almost had two colossus out but they attacked like 30 seconds too early and so he got killed .