So how do you guys feel about prophecy in fantasy novels? Good plot device, bad plot device, or something in between?

I don't read that many fantasy novels, but the few that I've read that contains prophecy seems to make it the overruling plot device, and absolutely nothing would have happened as it was written if the prophecy was non existent(Harry Potter & Sword of Truth series are the only ones that come to mind). All prophecies seem very self-fulfilling and that bothers me. It's an easy way to make characters behave as you want them to behave, and an easy way to throw characters into situations that you want them in.

I'm interested in how you guys see Prophecies, and even more if there are any books that handle Prophecies better than the two that I've mentioned.

 

Prophecies are usually distracting, especially when the prophecies are always right. I don't like the concept of fate, where everyone plays a specific role in events that they have no control over.

I think they're best used as possible futures, and only sometimes.

 

I like the way it's used in Wheel of Time - fairly obscure, so that people are kept guessing as to what exactly is going to happen, and they form a major plot point, so there is always that suspense about what the prophecies entail and what that means for the characters - the 'blood on Dragonmount' one, for example. They spawn years, centuries perhaps, of study in their world and often intense analysis IRL, and still don't guarantee much, if anything at all. In many cases they do end up being self-fulfilling, but they are not used to push characters in a certain direction simply because nobody really knows which direction they are going.

 

Sometimes they're good and sometimes they're bad, I forget the name of the book but I remember this old fantasy novel that I read where there was this main prophecy about the downfall of the chief bad guy who was an immortal only it turned out later on that the entire thing was bullshit that he made up. He used the entire thing to keep people absolutely convinced that no one but the bullshit hero in the prophecy with some blade that didn't actually exist could ever kill him and so almost no one ever tried. I thought that was brilliant and I love it when its used in a manner like that.

 

... that's ... fucking... genius.

 

Wow, that sounds pretty interesting, does anyone know the name of the book?

And I think that if used right, they could be OK to see in a story. I personally think that if there's a prophesy, it's going to happen, but how it happens is how the author can make a book interesting. For example, if the author makes it look like the prophesy is going one way, then at the end of the book makes a twist that everything you thought was wrong.

 

QFT!

Hey Krogan, what book/series was that?

Edit: Oops just saw you said you didn't remember... That's 10 types of fail right there

Back OT, IMO it really depends on how the author plays it. What Krogan just said would appear to be a time where it is epic win. Other times, well it seems to fail pretty badly. So just like all other elements of stories out there, it really just depends on the author and how they are going to play it. You can have the completely cliched "One with the power..." type prophecies that are included in stories that don't really hurt it in any way.

I've been going back and reading the Dresden Files again. In Grave Peril there's a practitioner who says that she can see the future. At the time everything she says seems like crazy talk, but still strangely foreboding. After seeing whats happened by this point in the series and its like

 

As long as people do not concentrate to much on the prophecy, it's a good plot device.

I hate fated questing hero, so story where the principal caracter do what a prophecy tell him to do, because it can not be wrong, i find it quite depressing. In most of those stories, the hero fight for freedom and free will, but the author do not realise that the prophecy take that away.

In others world, as long as the prophecy do not become the plot or a major plot of the story, it can be a valid plot device to use.

 

I liked how it was used in the Belgariad and Mallorean - two contradictory and opposing sets of prophecies, with two factions trying to make their ones come true, and neutral factions trying to decide which one would be more advantageous for them.

 

This

It truly made the series worthwhile among other things.

 

Very interesting; might have to look that one up.

 

Prophecies... Can be used well, and can be used badly. It's sad that in the vast majority of cases, they are used in the latter way.

That said, however, I don't really have much against the use of prophecies as plot devices; it's just that they're heavily overused (and abused, for that matter).

 

Aaah David Eddings. He used to be sooo good, I just wish his new stuff wasn't fail.

He was my introduction to fantasy, The Belgariad and Mallorean specifically. Great books.

And Krogan, please go find the name of that book, as Mid said, that was a genius idea.

 

Do you remember if the characters had Indian-sounding names? Arun, Kishin, something like that. I remember Maya was one of the main female leads. I'm almost positive I've read it. I barely remember the book, read it some time ago, but I'll contact the friend who recommended it to me and get the name from him.

And yeah, that book was awesome.

 

The way it was used in canon was okay, because it was ambiguous. It didn't really tell you anything you didn't already know already: Harry was Voldemort's nemesis.

The way they're used in most fanfics is bad, because they're not ambiguous. They say stuff like "The lion shall defeat the snake" which is just telling you the ending of the story.

So yeah, prophecies are fine so long as they don't get too detailed.

 

Why it's not okay: people have to make real decisions on whether or not to be good. This sort of gets swept under the rug by Dumbledore who says something to the effect of "you can walk away any time you want". He then goes on to say "if you'd never heard the prophecy, you'd still want to fight him."

In my mind, that's just not necessarily true.

A great story would have replaced the prophecy with a Harry-Neville or Harry-Draco arc in which one individual steps up to the plate and one walks away, so as to show a real and very tough decision.

Prophecies are bad news. IMO, unless they're used in a big "WOW, WE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED THAT ONE" scenario, or like someone exampled upthread with the big bad using it to trick the common folk, it doesn't need to be present.

Final thought is that I don't mind seers who dabble in creating minor conflicts in a story. At least ones that talk in riddles and who constantly make characters think. Usually what they say has several possible meanings. That can be interesting.

Protagonist-specific prophecies. No.

 

Take Jim Butcher's Changes. Throughout the story Dresden kept thinking back on that time he became a recipient of a Death Curse ("Die alone!"). Dresden remembered it several times, and each time it greatly unnerved him. In the end, well, that's exactly what had happened.

The prophecy here served as a sort of emotional buildup, and of course it was also a clue to the reader. When the reader finds such a clue and figures its significance-- well, I felt very smug knowing what could happen, and began preparing myself ahead of time to the delicious climax/dénouement. In other words, the prophecy here served to build up anticipation of the main event. I think that was a classic example of how to use a prophecy as a plot device.

 

Was it the Simoqin Prophecies? Not that old, though, so I might be mistaken... nonetheless, it had a somewhat similar plot to what you are saying. Pretty cool book.

 

For me, so long as the prophesy doesn't give any real details, and tends to be self-fulfilling (a la Harry Potter), I don't mind.

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In fact, I'd like to see a story where the prophesy was deliberately engineered around X (where X is "who the fuck cares, just pick some random dude and we'll make the prophesy about them), and a shadow group ensures that various nominal conditions occur to make it look as if it is true, and therefore X believes he or she really is the prophesied one, and so on.

Of course, the shadow group actively ensures that X stumbles into the training he or she needs, stumbles onto the information they need, and generally gains the support of the population.

X eventually defeats the "evil" who is actually just some person or group in power that the shadow group wants out of the way, and they put X into that power position.

Needless to say, all of X's trusted adventure buddies are in fact members of the org, and they're the means by which the shadow org pulls X's puppet strings.

 

To be honest, that sounds a good bit like the good old 'Dumbledore is a manipulative "coot"' fic.

The only real difference between the above cliche fic and your idea would be that the whole prophecy is faked. Well, that and rather than a group it would just be a shadowy headmaster playing puppet master from his castle.