Take everything that follows as a 'in my opinion';

I very much agree on these points- Legilimency is the 'easier' art as it starts as a spell cast through a wand. Experts learn to accomplish its use wandlessly and silent, as it makes a target unhappy to know their mind is being invaded.

Occlumency is the rarer art and much more difficult to master as there is no spell- but that doesn't mean magic isn't at play. It's more like Apparation- you need to understand the feeling of it, and until you do you're just concentrating. The wizard is trying to put up a barrier against a magical attack- this is going to take more than hard-headedness to accomplish. What's more, it would probably take sustained concentration and discipline to maintain a constant field of magical defense. As this is impractical, it becomes a matter of knowing when to keep your defenses up (like whenever Snape visits Voldemort). Practice x3- something most wizards aren't really good at.

By the way- screw the sensei and Tibetan monks; self-discipline/meditation isn't the same thing at all.

I'd agree that Dumbledore learned it but would never teach Riddle, but he might teach Snape in exchange for his turning spy. Riddle, though, was already showing the capacity to impose his will on the other orphans and know when they were lying. He could have easily been a 'natural Legilimens' and once he realized that most other wizards couldn't do what he did, though some could, he would search out the technique to defend his mind.

Riddle wouldn't want to teach all his followers how to defend their minds against his abilities, but he trusted Bellatrix as a fanatical supporter and may have taught her. Bella may have been teaching Draco, but I doubt Voldemort expected him to put up a strong defense.

In my own story, I added a nuance that others might enjoy (I mention it here so that you won't be trapped into reading the story); the Dark Mark may have other side effects that allow the Death Eaters to protect their thoughts somewhat without having to learn the skill of Occlumency, but that barrier doesn't affect Voldemort's use of the Mind Arts- in fact it would make it easier for him to penetrate his followers' minds as they're relying on his protection rather than learning to defend their minds on their own.

It would make a nifty incentive for recruitment- "Take my Mark and you'll be able to defend against Compulsions, Obliviations and Legilimency, possibly even subverting Veritaserum."

On another point- Obliviators wouldn't need to know Legilimency to do their job, but the best ones probably could use it.

 

Well, "any" Dark Wizard might not know it, but the better or more serious ones would. And you are right, just knowing how to say Legilimens would not give someone any real advantage in a fight. However, I don't see why a wizarding criminal couldn't put in some effort to become proficient at the more advanced aspects of Legilimency, especially considering how effective it makes one in combat.

It really is that awesome though. By practicing Legilimency, you totally dominate any other wizard that has not invested a similar amount of time in learning Occlumency.

And yes, while it is silly to base my conclusion off of Voldemort's skill level, I see no evidence in canon to suggest that either Occlumency or Legilimency are beyond the reach of any Auror recruit. Remember, Harry, a comparatively poor and lazy wizard, was expected to be able to learn Occlumency by no less an authority than Dumbledore.

 

Interesting, you all bring up good points. I think I'll stick to that it is rare and I'll need to reread my own fic to see precisely how I described it and whether or not it will fit in the skills I have already given them.

On a different note, has any one seen Inception? Perhaps it's like defending against extraction. Damn, I feel like writing a one shot now.

 

I would think Dumbledore taught Snape both. Occlumency to protect his mind and the Order's secrets from Riddle. And legillimency so he could learn what all of Riddle's minions were thinking at any given time.

Or the possible that the opposite is true and the Riddle taught Snape for the opposite reasons; to protect his mind from Dumbledore and to leech secrets off of Order members.

Legilimancy is a lot more than just determining if someone is lying. The way I interpret it that you can see through peoples memories and views of the actual event and then make a conclusion. Of course memories can be tampered with (Slughorn) but who knows if that is due to occlumency; but I think it is through use of the pensieve memory removing spell. There is definitly more to the spell that just seeing if someone is telling the truth. Did Harry not see a memory from Snape after he cast protego during Snape's legilimens?

 

I'm not quite sure what your point is. By your highlight of "the basics of Legilimancy" I'm going to assume that you are pointing out how knowing the basics of Legilimancy only (which I further assume we are defining as only the ability to detect lies) will not help Dark Wizards defeat Aurors.

I concede this point, but I don't think my main thrust is very much weakened. Yes, Dark Wizard Bob would need to spend some more time studying Legilimency. Yet, having postponed his crime spree by a couple more months, he is still able to defeat any Auror not trained in Occlumency.

Indeed, if we assume skill at Occlumency can be progressed at the same rate which skill at Legilimency can be (that is, a month spent studying the one will equal a month spent studying the other) then Wizard Bob's further studying places a matching burden to study on the Aurors.

 

Many wizards? Please don't think I'm saying that anything like many/most/a majority/etc. of wizards have the faintest idea of what the mind arts are. So yes, I agree with you in that it is just like Apparition. Most wizards don't bother with it, however, all Aurors can Apparate, because it is a skill that is an integral part of the combat landscape. For the same reason all Aurors can reasonably be expected to be proficient in Occlumency and Legilimency.

So I'm not certain if we're still disagreeing. Sure, the average wizard can neither Apparate nor perform Occlumency, but the average wizard also stops seriously studying further magic at a Hogwarts 5th year level. It's already been established that the average wizard can't perform the shield spell - just because the average wizard can't cast a spell certainly says nothing about the ability of the upper echelon of wizarding talent (Aurors, senior ministry leaders, Dark Wizards, etc.) to perform that magic.

 

Ninja'd or rather, just plain beaten to the punch. Not that Snape needed Legilimency to use Harry as a rake in front of Hagrid's hut that night, but Snape blatantly taunts Harry with the "blocked again and again until you learn to close your mind" speech, after blocking Harry's spells before the kid can even finish the incantation. Talk about out-classed.

Come to think of it, Snape must have really loved old Lily (in his own sick way) to have witnessed that pathetic kid and not have gone straight to Voldemort with something along the lines of, "Dude, that kid is awful. Seriously. But the old man knew about your Horcruxes and the kid is going after them, so you ought to hide them better, just in case. Still, the kid is beyond pathetic and so I'll be right back with his ass so we can get this over with. Wait here. Did I mention he's truly pitiful? I mean, damn."

Yeah, I think we lose sight of the fact that just like with regular people, there is a wide range of talent and effort levels in wizards. It's not as if they have a great track record of going the extra mile in their everyday lives (look at the way most can't seem to blend in with Muggles), and they tend to be pretty stagnant on most things (e.g. quills, robes, gas lighting, etc.), so it's no surprise they'd opt for the lowest common denominator on whatever.

Apparation requires concentration --> I'll use the Floo instead
Quills were good enough for our ancestors --> That's good enough for me
Ditto for robes, parchment, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

It boils down to Rowling wanting to build a quaint and quirky setting for her off-the-grid world, probably to offset the staggering power she was handing to its inhabitants, and what you end up with is a mish-mash of ideas that, taken objectively, makes no fucking sense whatsoever, but what are you gonna do?

Answer: Dresden Files?

 

See, you have a decent thought in terms of ideal situations but not practical realities. It would be ideal for all our police to be always be wearing SWAT gear and be in perfect physical shape, but the truth falls far short.

From an internal consistency perspective, if the Aurors know Legilimency as part of their standard skill set, then the Dark families will teach their loyal children Occlumency just as a matter of course. If the Aurors are authorized to scan the minds of suspects, the criminals will be trained to block them. It's a natural escalation, and one reason why polite nations try to arm their police as minimally as is effective.

 

Actually, I think something Rowling shared after the books ended might help. Apparently the reason Draco could learn Occlumency so easily is because, well, he's Draco; it's easy to shut down your emotions when you're already selfish and kind of an ass (compassion? Who needs that?).

Look at the other people who we know for a fact can do it: Snape, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Bellatrix. Notice a common thread? Pretty much everyone's either a bit (or a lot) of a sociopath, or a chessmaster who's used to misleading people (Dumbledore).

I would guess not a lot of people can do Occlumency because they lack the needed personality for it. That might be a good thing, all told.

 

You said:

So I respond with:

It's nice to believe that Dumbledore is ignorant/disapproving of Snape's teaching methods. I used to think so as well, but upon reflection...

I think Dumbledore is perfectly aware of how Snape teaches - and approves. If one even stands by the theory that Dumbledore was the one to teach Snape legilimency, then naturally he'd believe his protege best-suited to teach Harry the art - as he'd simply recycle the methods that he himself was taught. As such: the "Clear your mind" + I'mma fuck with your head method of tutelage may be exactly what Dumbledore used when he taught Snape. Maybe Snape declined to offer Harry a lemondrop afterward, but still.

None of that, in any way, is proof that the other professors don't know Occlumency.

 

That's not the way I see it though. Though what you say is totally plausible, I think that years of practice leads to you being able to use the spell with any affect - before that there is nothing. That's the way I see the animagus transformation, too - no partial transformation, no steps in the middle. No way to disprove both point of views though, so the argument is moot.

 

I find it likely to be a very rare skill, for the reasons already mentioned: the difficulty of finding Harry a teacher.

That said, without wishing to use the terms "natural Occlumens", I find it likely that many people have sufficiently focused/organised/controlled minds already that they're on the verge of being Occlumens anyway, without realising it. Remember that Harry is almost the anti-Occlumens (wears his heart of his sleeve). The ease with which his mind is broken into may not reflect the general weakness of an average person.

I also find it entirely possible for Voldemort to have re-created Occlumency for himself, from just a few mentions of its existence (though of course he may have found a manual). This is for two reasons: firstly, he was a genius - one already gifted with some talent for mental magic (ability to tell lies); secondly, Occulmency, while difficult in practice, appears to be extremely simple in the theory. All it seems to be is the art of thinking what you want to think, rather than what the Legilimens tries to force you to think of (a blank mind, or perhaps a memory other than the one sought, or an imagined memory). From everything we see, there appears to be no technique to it in particular, just extreme concentration.

You might just say Snape was a bad teacher to that, but when Harry finally figured it out on his own (yet more evidence that it would be perfectly possible for Voldemort to do so) he appeared to have no revelation about magical theory or mental technique, just a newfound strength of will.

Portus: I wouldn't be quite so quick to call quills in HP backwards. They do, after all, have spell-checking ones and dictation ones.

 

No, he couldn't, because he didn't think about that mind-link back then. He only thought about it after Arthur Weasley was saved because Harry had a vision. And two weeks weren't enough to learn it.

For me, Occlumency is an art of controlling one's emotions and thoughts instead of being controlled by them, and that's what canon Harry fails at so much.

One more thing: is it specifically said that the rest of the staff didn't know Occlumency or is it something you assumed?

 

Isn't it possible that Dumbledore picks Snape not only because Snape is quite good at Occlumency, but also because Dumbledore trusts so few people, overall, that his choices were fairly limited anyway? I mean, would D'dore have wanted just anyone nosing around in Harry's head, possibly being seen by Voldemort? Because that's what D'dore was afraid of, when he had Snape try teaching Harry - that Voldemort might possess Harry and/or see through Harry's eyes. Would D'dore want to expose anyone else if he could help it? That was why he didn't teach Harry himself, because he felt that if Voldemort knew how much D'dore cared for Harry, Voldemort could somehow use that, although I can't remember the exact wording.

Anyway, that same reasoning was in play long before Arthur was attacked, since it was the reason D'dore ignored Harry at the trial as well as before and after. And I think it wasn't just Harry having visions of Voldemort that prompted the lessons with Snape, it was that Harry was along for the ride with Nagini, another Horcrux, and that certainly scared D'dore shitless, not to mention how it wrung Harry out.

So yeah, I agree that there are people more suited to it, more reserved or guarded people like Snape, D'dore and Voldemort, and people for whom it's a long-shot, like basketcase!Harry from OotP. Seriously, that D'dore ever thought Harry could master it under the conditions of OotP kinda makes me question old Albus' grasp on reality.

Snape: Clear your mind.
Umbridge: LOL keep writing, shithead!
Trelawney: I See doom for you, Harry...
Cedric: ... [dirt nap]
Cho: Waaahhhh!
Hermione: Honestly!
Snape: Seriously, Potter. Clear your mind.
Voldemort: Psst. Hey, over here, retard.
D'dore: ... Don't talk to me.
Hagrid: And here's me little brother.
Sirius: Well, "bully" is a strong word...
Seamus: Me mam says yer lyin', Harry.
Neville: Imma kill that bitch.
Snape: Clear. Your. Useless. Mind. Numbskull.
Voldemort: Still here, dickweed.
Harry: #@$^&!J(%TQ! FFFUUUUUUU...

 

People saying Harry couldn't find a teacher or using Snape as evidence, what?

1.) Snape pretty much raped Harry's mind if I recall correctly. What evidence is there that Snape was telling the truth about what it was?

2.) Dumbledore clearly wanted Harry and Snape to interact. Dumbledore could of just as easily once again lied to Harry and told him Professor Snape was the only Professor. We tend to forget that Harry is not only ignorant of the Wizarding World but a lot of what goes on around him. We have no idea whether any other teachers knew or who else knew.

At this point, we can really only guess and it's up to the individual author to decide how they want to take it.

 

I would think that Dumbledore likes to know pretty much everything that goes around Hogwarts and his Order, and that is a lot harder to do when all of his teachers and Order members know occlumency. He would not seem as omnipotent.