The Endor Holocaust is old news. Still, both articles were interesting to read. Personally, I subscribe to a happier, no-holocaust version, but YMMV.

 

Yeah, so this is a necro, but we're continuing the conversation from the intro thread.

Anyways, after playing a few hours of classic TIE Fighter, I decided to check to see if LucasArts had actually decided to attempt a remake of the games... and I found this.

Seriously, you have no idea how much this pisses me off. Remaking this shit for the fucking XBox 360, and snubbing the PC fans that grew up with this series in favour of pandering to the dumbshit demographic that liked The Force Unleashed? Frankly, I'm not unconvinced the game will be unplayable on a console if they keep the original gameplay - there's just too many fucking key mappings in this genre (considering if they want to keep most of the experience of the old game, they need about thirty to fifty mappings, and I don't the XBox controller is really capable of that). I mean, there's throttle, weapons, targeting computer, wingman commands, cargo commands, and lord help you if you have shields or a fucking beam weapon and all the power shunting that goes between.

And on another note, they're remaking the WORST of the series. X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter was okay, but the story was practically non-existent compared to the intricate stories of TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance. On the other hand, I'm almost glad they're remaking the worst of the series, because then it can suck and I won't care as much.

But in all due seriousness, this is extremely frustrating for me. There's a market of older gamers (and probably a fair number of younger PC gamers too) who would love to see an old school game like TIE Fighter be remade with current gen graphics and come to the PC, particularly since the retro-game explosion. And look, I have nothing against SW games on consoles, but the space-sims of the X-Wing/TIE Fighter genre don't belong there. You know what does? The Rogue Squadron games, which were okay at best (nothing on the classics like TIE Fighter, and that's pretty much indisputable) and more importantly, tailored the consoles. A lot simpler, a lot cleaner to make (considering they probably have most of the Battlefront engine left over), and a lot less likely to piss hardcore fans off - and I'm going to add that I think the third-person perspective in a space sim is the only one that really works a damn on a console, but that's just me. Hell, if they wanted to have an Imp focus, remake a Rogue Squadron game and call it the 181st...

Actually, don't do this - the 181st Squadron was fucking awesome.

So yeah, LucasArts, fuck you all. Get back to me when you have the original designers on board and have the balls to remake (and make tons of money with) TIE Fighter.

/rant

Thoughts?

 

EDIT: Ignore the previous version of this post, wasn't very good.

While I haven't actually played TIE Fighter or X-Wing or any games from that group (well, I tried it one time I think, a long time ago, but the controls were a little too complicated for me at the time), I do think that the quality of Lucasarts as a whole has dropped considerably in the last few years. I really wish they'd get their shit together.

 

One by one, everyone's selling out.
Bioware with DA 2 and now LA with this shit.

 

And that's part of the issue, I think - LucasArts hasn't kept their shit together. Back in the nineties, they pretty much ran PC gaming, dueling with Sierra in the adventure game format and kicking all amounts of ass with the X-Wing/TIE Fighter games as the only real competition to Wing Commander and all its awesomeness. Hell, even though Dark Forces started out as a Doom clone, Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II was years ahead of its time in the FPS mold and one of the biggest reasons for the FPS explosion on PCs, next to the Quake games, and one of the reasons the Half-Life franchise even exists (where do you think all the level designers from JK went?). Even games that never got huge publicity, like the incredibly underrated Star Wars Rebellion (which nobody played), were very solid titles. Even the consoles, it had Rogue Squadron and Shadows of the Empire (anyone remember how much THAT game kicked ass?).

And then ten years later, LucasArts is half its original size and making games I would generously call shovelware. Sure, there have been a few mixed successes in the past four years - but not many that I would consider that good - keep in mind that KotOR 2 was released six years ago. Frankly, LucasArts shows a disturbing resemblance to Sega's treatment of the Sonic franchise, and if that doesn't scare everyone, I don't know what will. And then when we PC gamers get the first light of a revival, bringing back a franchise we loved, they're putting it on the fucking 360, where it will be unplayable or dumbed down to insulting levels.

Let me sum up feelings with this statement: when I have to play the best games LucasArts made on a DosBox emulator or an XP virtual machine, something's gone terribly wrong.

 

>_>

Rebellion was the first computer game I ever got, as I bought it at the same time that we bought our first computer in 1998. Like TIE Fighter, I still play it (the disk, 12 years old now, is still usable somehow), and have, in fact, added Mara Jade and Kyle Katarn to the list of characters you can recruit. It's the only game I know of where you can build a Death Star and blow up fucking Coruscant (though why you'd want to, seeing as how it brings you one step closer to losing...).

In fact, of those games you listed, the only one I haven't played is Dark Forces II, and that's only because I can't find it or its expansion anywhere (Dark Forces is awesome, though, and JO and JA aren't bad). With XvT, yeah, no real story, but BoP added one that, while nowhere near as good as TIE Fighter, was still enough for me. Haven't got XWA; it's on my Christmas list, in fact, as it has been for the last three fucking years

(Strangely, I've never played KotOR or KotOR II...)

Also, I'll admit that I enjoyed TFU, but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't like it. I'm wanting TFU II for Christmas, as well... We'll see how that goes.

 

You could also blow up Coruscant in that Empire at War game. Might be better doing it in Rebellion though, I don't know, I've never found a copy.

You really must play KotOR, careful if you're trying to run it on Vista though, it took me about 2 hours of debugging to get it running and then it decided to stop about a year later.

Dark Forces II is a very good game, they actually manage to give Katarn a lightsaber but still make the other weapons more useful in most situations. I used my blasters far more than the saber. Certainly wasn't easy to find though, I got it and its expansion pack for $5 at some shady market full of car parts.

LucasArts really doesn't seem to have any good ideas left. TFU was enjoyable enough, but I don't think I'll play it again for a few years. KotOR though, I play that every year. I get the feeling they don't want to explore EU eras because most customers won't know what anything is. Anybody know what they're making at the moment.

 

WEll, a t least we have The Old REpublic to look forward to.
MAybe.

 

Yeah, I don't buy this. When I can come up with a half-dozen ideas for Star Wars games off the top of my head and LucasArts can't, there's a problem.

1. Star Wars: Smuggler - think GTA meets SW. You play an up-and-coming smuggler on the mean streets of Tatooine/Coruscant/Nar Shaddaa/Abregedo/Atzerri, taking contracts for running spice, guns, narcotics, slaves, water, you name it, while avoiding Imperial patrols and the growing Galactic Civil War around you. Take jobs for the Hutts, Black Sun, or even covert jobs for the Rebels or Empire. Races? Pick starships or swoops. Spy missions where you pass information through various spy networks on Nar Shaddaa or Bothawui. Or maybe even take contracts from the infamous Talon Karrde himself. Tell me this idea is not awesome.

2. Remake Star Wars: Bounty Hunter - but don't feature it exclusively on Fett. Make it like the Hitman games, but with a high-tech Star Wars spin. Pull literally all the equipment from the Essential Guides to Weapons and Technology, and you have a pretty damn huge arsenal of tools. Couple it with a customizable ship and competitive contracts against other bounty hunters, and you could have a pretty engrossing game.

3. Star Wars: Imperial Commando. Make it a similar game to Republic Commando, which was actually quite viscerally enjoyable (at least for a SW franchise FPS). Play as a group of commandos under orders to crush insurgent governments, assassinate Rebel leaders, and ferret out traitors within the Empire. Once again, tell me this is a bad idea (it would also probably sell really well on the consoles, considering the obsession with 'dark & gritty' FPS games).

4. Remake Star Wars Rebellion - and don't do it like Empire at War. Keep it with much of the same gameplay/style as the original game, but give planets more detail. Add random events - say, if the player hasn't won by a certain very long time, BOOM Yuuzhan Vong, shit hits the fan. Streamline the strategic command, and make the ground fighting stronger (ie. interesting, less repetitive, etc.). Bring in the full flotilla of Star Wars vehicles for usage, and give us more customization options for facilities. I'm almost picturing a Hearts of Iron game crossed with SoaSE, then crossed with Star Wars. I think it could work.

5. Probably everyone's noticed by now that I haven't mentioned Jedi all that much. It's intentional - I'm heartily sick of most Jedi/Sith. But, if LucasArts is deadset on cramming saber-wielders into the game, then I've got one place they might just fit outside of the Old Republic: Yuuzhan Vong war. As much as the NJO was controversial, it was also exceptionally violent and a pretty fucking intense fight for Skywalker's academy. Hell, bring back Kyle Katarn again, in the style of the Jedi Knight games, I know that would sell.

6. Remake TIE Fighter on the PC, and keep the original story and gameplay.

See, if I can come up with all of these in twenty minutes, why can't LucasArts?

 

Fucking this.

In fact, I propose:

7. Make an X-Wing/TIE Fighter like game set during NJO. You can play either for the New Republic or the Imperial Remnant and kick ass against those Vong invaders, or, for more variety, you can play as the Vong, raining vengeance on the infidels of the galaxy.

All three of these would be fucking win... if they didn't screw it up. Which they probably would

 

My best guess is that LucasArts refuses to make a game that isn't full of Jedi/Sith. All of your ideas were based around making the player a character who isn't a Jedi. Jedi appeal to the kids, and that's the market they want to target at the moment. All this new Clone Wars junk is intended for children, even the DVD comes with an advertisement for toys inside the cover. Perhaps they haven't realised that a lot of people who play video games are adults and that these people don't need to see a lightsaber to enjoy the game. My guess is that they want to bring in as many dollars are possible, and they believe making games with Jedi will earn them more than a game where you play as a fighter pilot.

I would buy all those games on opening day, but I can't imagine LucasArts allowing you to run drugs for crime lords. The books certainly got gritty and adult enough in the NJO but they won't let it happen to the games.

Even if most of their best games are generally the ones with the least Jedi/Sith.

 

You thought they hadn't already? Lucas Arts sold out a long, long time ago when Georgie started basically shoe horning shit into every conceivable nook in the Star Wars universe to try and keep the cash flow going. I mean hell right now he's trying to sue a bunch of scientists for inventing something that semi sort of resembles a lightsaber.

 

You see, it's not that I don't disagree with you here, it's just that the view LucasArts is taking makes little sense, both from a marketing and gameplay POV. On the gameplay side, most of the games that earned them critical acclaim (TIE Fighter, Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II, Rogue Squadron, Shadows of the Empire, the first Battlefront) didn't have a heavy Jedi focus. In fact, there were only two that did (Jedi Outcast and the KotOR series, and KotOR was developed mostly by Bioware and Obsidian and had basically fuck-all to do with most of the SW mythos). Even the best console game to arguably come from the early prequel era (Episode 1 Racer - shut up, the game was awesome) and was geared towards kids didn't have a single lightsaber.

And after all, hasn't LucasArts learned the lesson of SW Galaxies, how the overpowering of Jedi ultimately fucks most settings up? Or seen the massive public acclaim when fans found out a playable class in The Old Republic was smuggler?

And here comes the crux of the matter - I don't think LucasArts has ever made an 'M' rated game in the Star Wars universe. And for that, they need to get over themselves. The plotlines of the good Star Wars games could have earned the M-rating if the gameplay had chosen to mirror it - they deal with some serious shit in those stories, particularly if you go Dark. But more on the point, I don't think the marketing people over there realize how well an 'M-rated' SW game would SELL. Seriously, if consumers in their late teens/early twenties saw Star Wars: Smuggler with an M-rating and a cover of some Han/Dash Rendar - lookalike running from his life from a trio of firing stormtroopers, they'd go fucking nuts. That game would make a shitload of money, and if it was well-made and tested, it probably could dislodge GTA4 as king of the format.

Right now, LucasArts needs to charge their marketing scheme, and start making games that are both accessible to newcomers AND what fans are hoping for - you don't need to displease one to appease the other. Hell, I hate to make this contrast, but Nintendo's been doing this sort of thing for years. And frankly, options 1,2,3, and 6 off my list would work (4 and 5 would be a little tougher, considering EU backstories and shit - but then again, that's never stopped the Marvel games, has it?).

Which is why Lucas needs to green-light all of the ideas I mentioned - because they will all make money.

 

I admit to ony having played a few of the older games like Jedi Knight or Academy, but I have played both KOTOR games, Republic Commando, both Battlefront games and EaW. These I consider the best SW games to be made.
Republic Commando was arguably the most awesome SW game ever made. It actually, literally pisses at Jedi and Sith, having 38 actually mock a lightsaber. Gotta respect that.
KOTOR had Revan. Nuff said. And the Battlefront series ... oh battlefront, so many fond memories... And it was nice to see a good strategy game with awesome space combat like EaW.

So yeah, LA must get their shit together, or fucking disband. They can't throw crap like TFU2 at our faces and compare it with the likes of KOTOR, RC, or even bloody FoC.

I used to play many Star Wars games on my old desktop computer, and would have bought those older games, but since it's broken now, I canceled any similar plans I had. A shame, I'm sure, but oh well.

 

Dude, those are hardly old by SW standards. Jedi Outcast came out in 2002. TIE Fighter came out (in its original version) in 1994. Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II came out in 1997. Star Wars Rebellion came out in 1998.

And I can currently play all of them on my Windows 7-running 2008 machine. Hell, I finally ordered a new disc for TIE Fighter to replace my cracked disk that I've been using since 2000 (holy shit, since I've been playing SW games since '95, when I was five... I've been playing Star Wars games for fifteen years... you think I'm invested in the franchise enough...).

As for finding the old games... the right sites have the games, and from there, all you need is a virtual machine or DOSBox to play them. It's not hard.

 

Actually, this brings back a thought of something that was sad off handed, and I think it might be added as part of the Old Republic MMO at some point. *shrugs*

Anyway, I can't remember who said it, but it was essentially said the Vong became phobic of "artificial" technology because of the Sith Empire that existed outside what the Republic knew as the boundary of space/the galaxy during Revans day. Its likely it was before Revan, since they were kind of hinted at ni the NJO form in KOTOR in Canderous' stories.

Might be nice to see a novel or maybe a game based on that. I'd say, for the game, go with it from the Vong perspective.

 

Looking to get into SW EU...should I start with the Thrawn trilogy, Zahn's Duology, and his following books? What should I read after that? I looked them all up briefly on wiki, but I'm not sure of what order I should read them, or which ones are actually worth reading.

I only played one of the games (I think the one that follows The Phantom Menace on either PSX or PS2), so reading through this thread had me scratching my head in complete confusion and ignorance.

 

Thrawn Trilogy. Best bit of EU you will ever read.

 

It's because you're a respected member of DLP; the pinnacle of Human evolution.

I myself have never played most of the games that have been mentioned here (read: KILL ME NOW!) but the ones I have (KotOR1, KotOR2, Republic Commando, Battle Front 1 and 2) will forever contain some of the greatest memories of my life.

TFU was a dissapointment yes but it was still a StarWars game and that gives it a certain level of 'awesomeness' when compared to most other games. Thing is, it could have been so much better. It could have been more than just "PRESS THE BUTTON!" but unfortunately that was what it came accross as. Why do you ask? Simple, it's because Lucas Arts but idiots in charge of making it.

This. I would buy this twice.:awesome

Now if only Lucas Arts and Rockstar could come to some sort of agreement . . .

 

A really long topic on theforce.net is dedicated to answering that question. Read it, or some of it. http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28542465/p1/?1216

But, yeah. Start with the Thrawn Trilogy. It's essential. Don't forget to read either I, Jedi or the Academy trilogy to get introduced to Luke's Jedi Order.