Yes, and we don't see any reason why she shouldn't have until summer before CoS. Either we can take this as a plot hole on JKR's part (which really shouldn't surprise anyone anymore), or we can go with the whole "children aren't forbidden from doing underage magic until their educations have begun" argument.

I'm not saying it isn't technically possible that the Ministry Obliviators aren't involved with muggleborn children on a regular basis (or at least the consequences of performing accidental magic in front of uninformed muggles), but we obviously don't have any canon reason to assume they do, either.

Edit: I'll add that in cases where the Statute of Secrecry is harshly broken and Wizarding World is at high risk of being exposed to muggles, it should be assumed that the Ministry would send Obliviators. Seems kind of obvious to me in those circumstances.

 

It wouldn't take much; yanking something out of an outlet the wrong way, causing a water blockage in the pipes/vanishing pieces of pipe, or heck even turning the knob on a gas stove. How many buildings heat with oil in the winter? You're underestimating how many things go boom or catch fire when shit hits the fan, and how little it would take (even with the low level accidental magic you're describing) to destroy a building.


Hell, even changing the color of a sign or the coverings of the traffic lights could be deadly, at traffic intersections. This stuff would be rare, but not unheard of.

 

I'm not entirely sure what exactly this has to do with her statement about finding out about magic through her Hogwarts letter. The connection is...?

 

She could have tried those spells on the train, where magic was allowed.

 

I'll explain it for you in detail, because you're obviously having trouble following the thread.

Someone made a stupid statement about how the system for Muggleborn students is fucked up (paraphrased). That led to someone else saying that Hermione is the only Muggleborn in canon on whom we have any private information on, and there there was the retort that we can only 'assume' that the Ministry doesn't interfere with students before Hogwarts. ParseltonguePhoenix made the valid point about Hermiones actions on the train, and finally I supported that with the fact that she says she has already tried magic (supposedly without any consequences); insinuating that indeed, the Ministry doesn't seem to interfere with Muggleborns prior to their first term at Hogwarts (from what we see). Make of that what you will.

Back on topic, has anyone tried or seen a HarryPotter!TuckerMax style crossover? I neither have the talent or time to write crack!fics (else I would deffinately give this a try), but a Harry narrating his life through different stories of drunken debauchery, and him being a genuine self-admitted arsehole due to his upbringing, could be awesome. At the very least, hilarity would ensue.

 

Inspired by recent posts concerning Ministry for Magic interaction with the muggleborn population pre-Hogwarts:

Premise: What if the Ministry did interact with these families?

History: After October 31, 1981, prominent purebloods in the Wizengamot begin attempting to whitewash their cause and soften it claiming that the war the wizarding World just fought was all just centuries of culture clashes coming to a head. The muggleborns are just ignorant of the customs and culture of the wizarding World and all that rot. They propose legislation that requires that the ability for a muggleborn to attend Hogwarts be contingent upon the muggleborn being removed from their families and adopted into wizarding families (think Prince of the Dark Kingdom).

Dumbledore calls them on their shit and the purebloods discover that the vast majority of Wizengamot members not only were never supporters of the pureblood claptrap, but in this immediate post-war period, no one but the staunchest purebloods (such as the Umbridge types) want to be seen as having anything whatsoever to do with Voldemort. They do however like the idea of the Ministry taking an active role in the lives of muggleborns and helping smooth their transition into magical society. They end up severely modifying the proposed legislation:

When a muggleborn has a bout of accidental magic, their name goes on a list, the trace is applied to their neighborhood and their family is visited by Ministry officials to explain magic, the magical world and the law. These children are then required to attend a once-a-week class on the magical world together (they get there via floo-network, which the Ministry hooks up to their homes - at cost to the family, of course). Muggle families of muggleborn children are given access to St. Mungos.

A couple of potential consequences: Harry and other muggleborns meet and develop good friendships long before Harry meets any purebloods - either Draco or Ron. If you wanted, you could have the seeds of HP/HG planted and spouting by the time they go to Hogwarts.

The "purebloods" - that is to say, the ones who original proposed this legislation with less than impeccable motives - are none-too-happy. Muggleborns who have been going to these classes have formed solid friendships and rally around Harry, who they all know much better than they did in Canon.

Ah well, it's more of a seed for a plot-bunny, than anything.

 

@Rin: I had a similar idea based on the pre-hogwarts education in Prince of a Dark Kingdom, though without the backstory/justification. I like the way you did it.

 

@Rin: It seems like a reasonable enough system to plop into an AU story. In fact, your proposed program seems almost entirely too reasonable for the Ministry.

 

And since it would be early enough, it would give a lot of leeway when it comes to developing/altering various, young characters' personalities.

Butterfly effect, and all.

The trouble is, the abuse and isolation at the Dursleys is what made Harry, well...Harry.

Too much alteration, and you might as well have an OC with the lightning bolt scar.

 

Even with the saner Ministry program in place (and the 'at the cost to the family' is a big problem, btw), Dumbledore would never allow Harry to live in a place easily accessible by their enemies. He'd find some Wizengamot Chief's fiat that allows him to secure and isolate Harry for his protection.

I'm not suggesting this from a Manipulative!Dumbledore perspective- even the kindest version of Albus would be smart enough to realize that a Harry with a floo address is a dead Harry.

In this AU, everyone would know more than Harry, unless he was assigned a 'Race Bannon'-like tutor/protector. (Mr. Lupin, please step forward)

Again, without suggesting any unhealthy relationships, Remus' instruction would give Harry a view of the magical world with a bias towards the oppressed magical creatures perspective.

If Lupin doesn't fit in the Dursley's house because of the werewolf thing, you could fall back on Arabella Figg, but in this version she's above-board, telling the Dursleys that she's watching them and introducing Harry to magic as early as 5 years old. She can't show it or teach it, but she can talk about it.



Wow. I really spun that bunny dizzy. I'll just sit quietly, now.

 

Some more thoughts, expanding the idea, and considering the above comments:

Five or six years have passed, and things have begun calming down. Being a wee bit of a pureblood supremacist (PBS) is no longer seen as tantamount to admitting to being a Death Eater. The collective amnesia of the general populous has set in and now only the most staunchly anti-pureblood-supremacists (such as the Weasleys) are still suspicious of and dislike supposedly innocent former Death Eaters such as the Malfoys.

The PBSs now start gaining ground in the Wizengamot because members who, for purely political reasons rejected anything that had so much as the scent of being related to Voldemort, are now more amenable to bills that are, perhaps, not blatantly pro-pureblood, but at least are so in their intent.

The PBSs are also angry that their earlier legislation lead to a much smoother transition of muggleborns (MBs) into magical society, and now they no longer have that avenue from which to argue: MBs are ignorant of magical culture and clash with it – but now they no longer do because of the system the Ministy set up. They begin implementing small and subtle changes in the curriculum. Denying it a little funding her, and next year a little more funding there – after all, the budget just isn’t there for it these days.

Look! See! The program isn’t working! Now if only we could get a proper teacher in there (read: one of the PBSs) and so on. Dumbledore is of course fighting this tooth and nail, and very cleverly, of course.

Someone said that this was too reasonable for the Ministry. I say, never underestimate the ability of the MoM to end up totally fucking this up.

As for Harry’s access to the floo? I agree. Dumbledore would likely hook up Arabella Fig’s home, instead. I would also imagine that the Dursleys would be ever bit as nasty to Harry. They might not be able to keep him in a cupboard, and they might be forced to send Harry to the weekly school, but that doesn’t mean they’ll like it.

 

But how do any of those things point the muggles toward the existence of magic? If the apparent cause is so mundane as a blocked pipe or a faulty traffic light, why would the Ministry need to send Obliviators or get involved in any way?

Saying that it doesn't take much to cause a big accident isn't an argument for powerful accidental magic. And, if the use of magic was so subtle that it mimics a cooking accident, the best the muggles are going to come up with is, "I suppose it could have been arson, but we can't figure out who would have done it, or how."

That's not going to make any muggles say, "It had to be magic!", nor is it going to send Obliviators flooding out of the Ministry to do clean up.

 

@Warlocke: Depends on how many surviving witnesses to the accidental magic part of it there are. I imagine that with the situations where there's widespread destruction, the muggleborns wouldn't survive, and nor would any witnesses. How is this a good panning on the Ministry's part again? Come to think of it, this could be why there's such prejudice against muggleborns; they keep letting the cat out of the bag for the Wizarding world to have to catch again and again.

My argument is not about Super!Accidental Magic; it's about Doesn't-mix-well-with-technology!Accidental Magic. It can do lots of damage, but that isn't the real point. My actual point was that accidental magic is dangerous for the muggles and the muggleborns themselves to deal with.

Look, say there's a house party with about 20 people attending, and muggleborn kid loses it and accidentally pulls an appliance out of the wall starting an electrical fire. However, because the modernist layout of the house, the kitchen is clearly visible from the dining room, every guest watches little Jimmy start screaming and crying. Then right when he reaches his crescendo, the Cuisinart floats up, pulls at the cord in the socket, eventually rips out of the wall and is tossed into his meanie-jerkface big sister's face.

Even if no-one dies (electrical fires tend to be high on property damage but low on casualties unless there are electric locks in poor repair), that's still a fair amount people who just witnessed uncontrolled magic burn down someone's home. Obliviators come in erase everyone's memory and the Wizarding world just rolls on. The house is still burned down from an electrical fire, but no-on remembers the magic aspects of the accident.

Another example, little Harry, scared because little Dudley is beating him up again, wants Dudley to go away. Suddenly little Dudley is floating in the air, Harry stares up in wonder as balloon!Dudley goes higher and higher, right into the telephone wires overhead, where he is promptly electrocuted. Or with Harry's fear replaced by surprise, Dudley drops to the ground, breaking his legs if he's lucky, his spine or skull if he's not.

Everyone thinks the scene I stole this accidental magic from in PoA is jokey, but it really isn't when you start thinking about it. Situations like that are probably the reason why the Dursleys hate Harry. We don't know how long it took the ministry to get there. We do know the Obliviators came (because Dobby faked Harry's wand signature or did enough magic to set off the scanners) in and got her down, which was lucky; imagine if Aunt Marge broke a light socket, she probably would have been fried.

 

A little plot bunny that came into my head the other day, while re-reading some of 'I Shall Wear Midnight' (the most recent Discworld novel).

For those of you not familiar with it, it revolves around The Cunning Man, a former witchhunter/general Inquisitor for the Omnians (the Catholic analogue of the Disc). He falls in love with a witch, but fails to prevent her execution; she causes him to be horrifically burnt at the same time, and he slowly turns into a malevolent spirit who every few decades crops up and inspires severe anti-witch sentiment - In 'I Shall Wear Midnight', he's around because the heroine has been getting steadily more badass, and has thus attracted his attention.

The plot bunny? Harry attracts his attention. I don't have much more than that, but it could be spun into something about the Statute of Secrecy (he works by inspiring irrational fear, so it could even fit into the idea being discussed above ^). Or I could just be talking out of my arse.

 

Alternatively, the Dursley's hate Harry because they despise anything remotely out of the abnormal. Aunt Petunia hates Harry because he's a reminder of her sister whom she mistreated, and of a world that she wanted to enter but couldn't. They could hate Harry because he was dropped out of nowhere on there doorstep. Petunia could hate Harry because she fears attention from Voldemort and his peeps. Vernon could hate Harry because he is a xenophobic, rascist, generally prejudiced bastard. And Dudley could hate Harry because he's been taught to hate Harry.

And this theory has the benefit of ya know, being supported by canon. Sure accidental magic might tweak the Dursley's. (The blue hair is mentioned in PS). But it's not as if they need justification to hate Harry.

tl;dr. Accidental magic is not the cause of the Dursley's hate for Harry.

Also, this example contradicts your point. If there are no witnesses to the destructive magic, there's no letting the cat out of the bag.

 

:facepalm

Alternatively, you could never read fan fiction again. I'm pointing out that as awful as the Dursleys actions are, there are some fairly compelling reasons to keep Harry under their collective thumb that have nothing to do with their emotional hangups, and that Vernon's extreme hatred of the abnormal probably came from somewhere. Why not fear of what Harry could do to them?

Petunia's motives are fairly well nailed down, but Vernon's aren't. Dudley was very clearly motivated by greed and power over others. He was a rather banal, boring bully.

...

No. It isn't the only reason; I am speculating about alternative and secondary motivators to the Dursleys. However, accidental magic could easily be a strong factor in how they raised Harry. I do believe there's a quote in PS about "stamping out that rubbish," in reference to magic.

While the syntax of that paragraph leaves much to be desired, the point was quite simple: Regardless of whether or not there are witnesses, there is a strong potential for Accidental Magic to cause serious damage and even fatalities. There is little to no canon evidence of the MOM doing anything about this. The closest thing we have to this is the Obliviators coming for Aunt Marge, but that was most likely triggered by Dobby, not Harry.

The point about muggleborns was poorly placed, but it is still valid. It isn't hard to imagine a few obliviators (or period equivalent) going to the Leaky Cauldron after some stupid-arse of muggleborn kid burned down their own house/cottage/hut/whatever, called the obliviators out of their nice warm beds, and generally acted like a spoiled little ponce. They start bitching about muggleborns in general, which gets passed around the gossip circles.

--

On a completely unrelated note: Here's an idea that's not a giant debate on bullshit: Harry Potter based off of Calvin and Hobbes- all he needs is a stuffed animal to animate with accidental magic. Maybe Harry believed so much in his artificial friend, it began to take a life on of its own? For the lulz, you could even make Hermione into a poor man's Suzie Derkins and Dudley into poor man's Moe.

Plus, I really want to see McGonagall's reaction to Spaceman Spiff.

 

:facepalm
I was under the impression that we were discussing Ministry policy towards muggleborns and accidental magic in a fairly canonesque world. No shit you can do whatever you want in a fan fiction, and ascribe whatever motivations you want to anyone. If that's gonna be your argument then there's no point in this or any discussion whatsoever. Fail point is fail.

Again, no. Petunia is familiar with accidental magic from Lily. Unless she's absolutely retarded she understands that its tied to emotions. So actually treating the child in a way that will make him hate you is not a good way to control accidental magic. So unless you think Petunia lacks all semblance of logic whatsoever, the way they treat Harry has nothing to do with repressing dangerous magic. It may be their justification, but it's a bullshit one, and Petunia, at least, knows that.

Throughout the story, Vernon is constantly bitching and moaning about the 'other'. He hates foreigners, the poor, people who dress funnily, people with differing political views, and anyone who deviates anyway from his norm. He's your run of the mill reactionary bigot, the type who would watch Glenn Beck. There's absolutely no reason to believe that Harry caused his hatred of the abnormal.

I'll grant you that occasionally Obliviators could be called out and come back and bitch. But I don't see it being a particularly common occurrence. Most accidental magic is small, and any destruction it causes, (as Warlocke says) can easily be rationalized away. The capacity of the human mind to come up with explanations for the unusual and unrealistic is phenomenal.

-------

In the right hands, this could be a fantastic crackfic. The lulz would be extraordinary.

 

Warning: LONG plot idea

Harry is bewildered when the first Hogwarts´s acceptance letter came. He never asked any wizarding school to accept him and he thinks it is a joke, so he sends his rejection back. Dumbledore and McGonagall come to Dursleys and during discussion is revealed that they are responsible for Harry´s placement there. Harry decides (maybe a bit childishly) that they are mainly responsible for his neglect and abuse and declines enrollment at Hogwarts.

He is still curious about Wizarding World but his attitude changes when he is mobbed in Diagon Alley and sees in history books that he is hailed as hero but Wizarding World could not be bothered to give a damn what happened to him after he was orphaned. He is fascinated by magic but decides that he wants no contact with Wizarding World.

He tries, first to cause, and then to control accidental magic episodes. He finds out that they are caused by his emotions running high and he always had a furious temper and an overflow of emotions. After many tries he finally manages to obtain a degree of control over his magic.

Meanwhile, Dumbledore decided to give Harry time to cool and then try again and persuade Harry. He is derailed when troll on Halloween kills some Slytherins who met troll in dungeon on their way to dorms. This turns into major scandal (most of dead are from old, pureblood families) and Dumbledore has to spent his political capital to stay as Headmaster. Voldemort knows that Quirrell will be interrogated and blamed (he has a gift with trolls, so he is the first suspect), so he decides to cut his loses and he abandons Hogwarts, leaving Quirrell dead. Dumbledore removes PS from school after Ministry pressure and has to leave Harry alone.

After this situation, Lucius Malfoy tries to finally force weakened (politically) Dumbledore out of school with help of Horcrux Diary. Dumbledore has to act and quickly finds the plot from mind of braggart Draco and ambushes Lucius after Board meeting. He is able to observe actions of possessed student (averting deaths by conveniently muting Basilisk´s stare), understands that diary is a horcrux and he heroically saves him/her from Chamber of Secrets. This helps him to regain his lost respect and standing.

In summer before canon second year, Dumbledore decides that Harry has to come to Hogwarts (because of confirmed existance of Horcruxes and for Harry´s protection) so he tries to force Harry with argument that he is Harry´s magical guardian so Harry has to obey him. Harry declines because he does not recognize any authority from the world that abandoned him and won´t go wilingly. DD has no choice but to take matter to Wizengamot, Harry defends himself against Aurors after tragic misunderstanding between them and antagonistic Dursleys. He is captured and accused of underage magic use, attack against Aurors and apparating without license. He doesn´t win any friends during the trial with his disdain of Wizarding World and his refusal to recognise authority of MoM over himself. He is sentenced to either fine or 6 months in Azkaban. Not knowing about horrors of Dementors and believing that fine is only an attempt to steal his money he chooses Azkaban.

He is given cell next to Sirius (there are no special sections in Azkaban for underaged) and he becomes friendly with him while fighting against Dementors´ super effective effects. After his time in jail, he is given to custody of AD while his attempts to clean Sirius´ name are ineffective.

Bitter and furious Harry has to start his education as first year in canon third year. He knows he can´t try to ignore Wizarding World any longer and he must deal with its influential leaders who wants to control him, one way or another.

He has to gain at least 3 OWLs to become a qualified wizard and leave Hogwarts without losing his wand, so he studies like possessed but is hindered by Sirius´ escape and reemergence of Triwizard Tournament and his forced participation. There are rumors of rising Darkness on the horizon and his Headmaster tries to manipulate Harry into what he thinks is Harry´s destiny.

 

Get rid of:
- Dumbledore finding Lucius' plan in the mind of his son (how would Draco know it?),
- Dumbledore trying to force Harry as his magical guardian (cliche and rather weak one),
- Harry being send to Azkaban when he is just twelve years old (unless he is charged with murder).

The rest is nothing special, though Harry starting his education at Hogwart two years later may be interesting concept, if you don't go by the route where he will manage to get skills on a level on his peers in just few weeks.

 

I thought the plot bunny was nothing special and downright contrived and ridiculous in other places. Celestin already covered a few issues. Here are some others.

--If students die in the troll attack, especially students from wealthy/important families, Dumbledore will be gone from Hogwarts and in disgrace. He gets sacked in COS because of petrifications. Student deaths=permanent disgrace.

--Dumbledore already knows that Voldemort is still around and Harry has to kill him. Discovering horcruxes doesn't give him any more motivation to get Harry to Hogwarts than he already has.

--Azkaban is overplayed and ludicrous really, especially if Dumbledore wants him safe.

--Most importantly, Dumbledore doesn't need Harry's consent to get him at Hogwarts. One spell or threat to the Dursley's and away he goes. The idea that Dumbledore would let a petulant 11 year old interfere his plans and the wizarding world's safety is unfathomable.

All in all, an uninspiring plot bunny that's more tedious than interesting.