I was thinking slash, transfiguration, LOLGUNS and tits.

I guess it's the same thing really.

 

It reminds me of the game 'Clue':

"Harry killed Voldemort with... a shotgun in France while banging Lisa Turpin, because of Gamp's second exception breaking down logic."

 

I can hardly believe it, but I agree with Tehan.

Now, the physics-consistent magical system I talked about many a moon ago on IRC has been mocked by many, and rightfully so; it's retarded. (Seriously, dragons breathing fire because they have gasoline in them? :facepalm) So, instead of spouting shit off without thought like I once did, I thought about what I really believed, and came up with the following.

In the system of magic I'm using for my fanfiction, saying that magic doesn't conform to physics is like saying biology doesn't conform to physics. Physics, as I'm using the word, is the set of natural laws that govern the universe. For a real-life example as to how this may not be synonymous with other uses of the word, consider dark energy. We know it (almost certainly) exists, we know what it does... but we don't know what it is. That certainly doesn't mean that it is nothing simply because we don't know what it is.

In other words, to use something Tehan stated, magic appears to shatter the First Law of Thermodynamics because the First Law of Thermodynamics, as we define it, is wrong. It is wrong in the same way the Standard Model of particle physics is wrong; it's incomplete because it doesn't take magic into account.

Basically, when I say magic follows physics, what I'm really (trying) to say is that it is logically consistent, has defined limits, and that the scientific method can be applied to it, i.e. it doesn't do whatever the fuck it wants whenever it fucking wants to. That isn't to say that Muggles could apply the scientific method to magic any more than a blind person could to color (not an exact analogy, but close enough). Magic is consistent with physics in that it describes the way the universe works. Moving on.

1, 3, and 4 I agree with; 2, I do not. Again, using the system of magic in my own fanfic (which translates into what I would change about HP magic, obviously), 2 doesn't hold. As an aside,

This, too, I would claim false in my system. There is such a thing as inherent power, and Voldemort and Dumbledore are inherently more powerful than Peter Pettigrew.

Returning to point 2, Taure, consider that many, perhaps most, spells "cost" so little that they can be cast indefinitely without tiring. More complex spells, however, are much more intensive, and can tire the caster out very quickly. In fact, some spells are so intensive that only the most powerful witches and wizards can cast them at all. Such a spell could be Fiendfyre (not in canon, however, as Crabbe manages to use it in DH; since my fic is a DH substitute, this is irrelevant), making its use in OotP that much more impressive.

In the end, I think my ideas about HP magic differ greatly from that of most of DLP, and they certainly differ from yours. Things like Gamp's Laws play right into my interpretation of magic, as they set limits to magic that can (one assumes) be tested. In the end, however, we aren't really told that much about magic in Harry Potter, which is why it's so open to interpretation. So, while I would add a lot more depth into the system of magic, not a lot would be changed, because not a lot is known.

 

I like the magic system in HP because everyone who had the ability to use magic can use it and they can be good at it if they are motivated enough to learn how (just look at Neville from squib to hero).

I agree with Taure four points. I don’t have a problem with number 2, because when I think about it, magic is all about restraining oneself.

The Act of Secrecry is said to have been adopted to protect wizards from muggles, but with spell that allow someone to breath underwater, teleport or having fun burning at the stake, where they really in danger to begin with?

Had they wanted to take over the world, the wizard could have century ago, most seem just to not care about being first class citizen; they just want to live in peace.

Harry and Dumbledore are both example of that ideology of restraint: Dumbledore refused to become Minister of Magic for fear of letting power go to his head and lose all restraint trying to do the right thing, the same apply to Harry who will not keep the Elder’s Wand out of respect for Dumbledore, but also because he don’t see the need for more power.

For me, Voldemort and Grindelwald are wizard that have no restraint to use their power to impose their will upon the world, so they look more powerful than the other.

Wise, restrained and peaceful people are often seen as weak compared to more violent and action oriented people because they don’t see the necessity of, by example, burning the tree that block the road instead of walking around. The first option is more impressive, but a waste of time in the end.

I would like to add that wizard generally don’t feel a responsibility to help humanity improve its general condition, so to make life easier for everyone is not really an argument for them to take charge oftheworld. I don’t remember which book (maybe the first), but I remember that in one of them Arthur or Hagrid tell Harry that wizard don’t want to have to deal with every problems the not magical people may have.

Finally, because magic make everything easier, most wizards seem to be lazy and like to enjoy themselves, world domination don’t seem to be their first goal. I suppose that laziness help them to restrain themselves from using their power.


Abouy Gamp’s Law, I agree that it came out of nowhere, but I understood it as the food not having the right nutriment. From my understanding, you can conjure a steak out of thin air, but instead of having proteins you will absorb oxygen, nitrogen, etc. So when someone asks the room of requirement for a steak, the room understands proteins and since she can’t create from nothing, nothing appears.

 

Slight point, but I don't believe conjured food is created from the surrounding atoms or some such. I believe it is simply 'nothing' conjured into a form.

 

Nice, too bad Word of God contradicts you.

I'm no physicist, but if magic were consistent with physics in some way we could yet perceive, wouldn't the universe be a radically different place? Y'know, beyond having unicorns and dragons.

It's a moot point because you're never going to reconcile a fictional magic system set in a world that shares all our real physical laws. All you're going to end up doing is going 'herp derp, there are some things, even science cannot explain' or you take the pussy route (more pussy I mean) and quote us Clarke's Law, which pisses me off beyond imagination. It may be fucking true, but it is perhaps the most unsatisfying thing to ever hear pulled out in any debate,argument or story.

I'm glad to see that this thread has now become about your system, which directly violates canon, which just happens to be the basis of all discussion in this thread.

Again with your fucking system, the thread is about the canon magic system dude, and while it may be cool that you think you can do better it's absolutely irrelevant.

Nice to see that you're presupposing that Crabbe is a bad wizard. Sure he's stupid (from the biased POV of a teenager) but, you just declared Taure's theory of intelligence = magic talent (or at least that's what I think his view is) to be null and void 'in your system', and seeing as you're now OVerlord of the Harry Potter universe obviously your word is law.

Even stupid contradictory limits?

 

I don't really agree with mknote's system, but you need to shut the fuck up because not only are you being a giant douche you're just wrong about the thread.

This thread is littered from beginning to end with people proposing their own changes to the HP magic system and arguing it should be scrapped entirely. For God's sake you posted a poll at the top of the thread asking what should be changed from the HP magic system. In fact, allow to quote from the post that you started the fucking thread with.

What mknote just did is to answer the exact fucking question that you posed at the beginning of the thread. Don't like his system? Fine. But to say his post is irrelevant to the thread's purpose is retarded bullshit.

Once again you've proven yourself to be a whiny bitch of a rules nazi moaning about the 'purpose of a thread'. The sad thing is you can't even remember the posted reason behind the thread you fucking started. Just :facepalm So again, please STFU.

 

It's not true. The context of Clarke's Law is that to the average person highly advanced technology may as well be magic, because they have as much chance of understanding it as that.

 

To be fair, I don't think all dark curses are similar to the Killing Curse (I.e. One needs to focus heavily on a particular emotion to ensure efficacy). Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of such magic was incredibly simple - and canon confirms this. The Imperius is easy; Sectumsempra is easy; even Fiendfyre, while hard to control, was obviously easy to cast.

EDIT: whoa, this was supposed to be under Scribblerus' post. My bad on the lateness.

 

You're abso-fucking-lutely right dude. I am a rule nazi and a douchebag. And being a douche-bag, seeing mknote of all people arbitrarily changing the rules of canon without giving any fucking reason makes me do douche-bag things no matter how wrong they are.

Seriously.

/backpedal

Also dude, let it fucking go, as Sesc would tell you :chillax. There's plenty of places on the internet for you to indulge your cartoon character craving, or hentai, or whatever name you guys use for it. Don't hold a bitch-grudge because some guy asked the unthinkable: that you moved you cartoon porn/hentai to another thread. I know it's hard to fight off the rage at such an inhuman punishment, but please try.

 

I don't really give a fuck about the pics thread. Like you said there's plenty of places on the net for it. Likewise I don't really care if you want to shit on mknote in general, from all accounts he gives plenty of reason for it.

I am however gonna call you on it when you tell someone that their posts are irrelevant when they directly answer a question posed at the start of the thread. Because you're wrong, and not only were you wrong but you were a dick at the same time. Don't spew shit and expect to not get called out. It's even sadder when you started the thread and can't remember or be bothered to look up the question you posed.

tl;dr If you want to be crazy strict about the subject matter discussed in a thread, you go right ahead. But at least do it properly and get the topic of the thread (especially your own) correct. Or don't and get called out on acting like a moron. I don't care either way.

 

I voted Fuck it, throw out everything but the basics, start anew. Because, to me, magic in canon isnt so much a system as it is a plot device. Which is why so many inconsistencies appear throughout the series. If I ever got around to writing fanfiction I would either make like JKR and invent spells to further the plot, or scrap everything and make a more logical system to limit characters abilities under fire.

 

I'm pretty much in line with the idea that it has to be minor tweaks, if any at all. The only thing I might be tempted to change is the idea of magic being a fatiguing exercise, and to be completely honest, that doesn't really make sense in the larger sense of things. To someone who is clever and knows what they're doing, HP magic is insanely broken. Gubrathean Fire is a limitless source of heat and light that cannot be extinguished, never goes out, and doesn't require fuel. That doesn't 'just' break every damn law of physics in the book be basically being perpetual energy, but it also would be completely impossible under any reasonable system of magical fatigue. The very idea behind magical fatigue is that you are paying some fraction of the 'cost' of the effect in stamina. What's a fraction of infinity? Also infinity. Gubrathean Fire just doesn't logically work in a magical fatigue system, as you're getting an infinite return for a finite cost (a very TINY finite cost, relatively speaking). Plus, it's implied that people who are badass at charms, like Flitwick and Dumbledore, can just churn this stuff out whenever they want, which makes even less sense in a fatigue system. Really, it's not so much a problem I have with the magical system as it is how the wizards use it. I hate fics that cast all wizards as being retarded, but let's face facts; they aren't exactly smart. If they were, they would be much farther along than they are now, even if you factor in the cloistered society aspect and have them continue to shun mundane innovations. With all the magical forms of fire around, the Harry Potter universe is literally within pissing distance of a steampunk utopia. The only thing missing is the person who makes the connection that hey, infinite eternal fire equals infinite eternal steam energy. So no, I wouldn't really change anything much, to be honest with you. I'd be less inclined to change things than I would be to ask certain questions that have gone canonically unanswered. Like, for instance, how are one-off magical 'artifacts' like the entrance to Diagon Alley or the Goblet of Fire made? Is that enchanting, some complex application of charms and transfiguration, or some function of runes or arithmancy? Exactly what goes into wand construction? Is it difficult and a true art form, or is it as simple as stuffing a magical substance into a hollow piece of wood and screwing a handle on? What happens when two spells collide head-on when brother wands aren't involved? Ricochet? Explosion? Reflection? Why is it someone skilled in charmwork can fling large objects all over the place, tossing them and levitating them around, but those same effects cannot be applied to yourself? Do all Dark Arts require negative thoughts to function properly, or is that just an issue with the Cruciatus and Killing curses? Beyond a laundry list of questions that remain yet unanswered, I don't really have any problems with Harry Potter magic. Exempting, of course, the incredibly dunderheaded ways that wizards go about using it.

[EDIT]

Well that's interesting. Spacing gets eaten alive, making one giant block of unreadable text. Clearly, I must be doing this wrong.

 

The carriage return is a tool for everybody. Use it in good health.

Since the topic has been refreshed, I thought I'd add this quirky notion (incidentally also an excerpt from my story that no one should read). You may see it as just ridiculous or as an apocryphal explanation for the state of the wizarding world.

 

I wonder what's happens when you use an Undetectable Extension Charm within an Undetectable Extension Charm.

Also:

Why would you need steam energy when you have magic. Magic is energy, of a sort, and is infinite in itself.

 

A wizard has magic in infinite supply. A muggle would appreciate limitless fire without needing the constant presence of a freak (uhh, I mean wizard) to make it happen.

Sure, a steampunk utopia would be a natural outgrowth of the end of the Statute for Secrecy. Either that or some entertaining genocide. Both deserve to be written.

 

The counter argument for this is to say that all permanent spells draw on "natural" magic surrounding them to keep themselves going. Or the author could simply decide that magic has nothing to do with energy, and while magical power can be measured it doesn't translate to any set number of Joules; meaning that the energy output of a spell doesn't depend on how much magic is used but how it is used.

 

This thread annoys me more every time I read it. Mind boggling stupidity all round.

 

Another take on a Magic System could be the mental strain of it. I can't really sit down and do intense mental concentration for very long. The same could be said of casting magic. Simple spells like levitation and household spells could be done easily and continuously due to not very much mental concentration needed for them. Or the more you use a spell, the easier it becomes.

If it's for something more intense, maybe the Death Curse, or Fiendfyre, could take more effort and thus a lot of casting on that level could cause some to become mentally tired. I know we've all felt like that at some point. Another example could be the healing spell Snape had to use on Draco.

 

I'd scrap the whole thing and start over. Like lord raine said, there are so many powerful (broken) uses of magic that are completely underutilizied in canon. And for good reason - if JKR remembered that pensieves and verasiterum existed, there would likely be no books 6 & 7.