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Prior Incantato

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by fanficlover, Feb 14, 2010.

  1. fanficlover

    fanficlover Fourth Year

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    Does this spell cause the wand to only reveal its very last spell or could it be used to look at a larger number- say the last ten or twenty spells cast by the wizard/witch?
     
  2. Heosphoros

    Heosphoros Fourth Year

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    The only time it was used in canon it only revealed the last spell. Of course, its likely that can show more, otherwise it would be a fairly useless spell in forensic matters (as its use seem to lie).
     
  3. Dark Minion

    Dark Minion Bright Henchman DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    Deathly Hallows:

    If Harry isn't just babbling, then there is a way to show more than just the last spell.
     
  4. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Probably relies on intent, like a lot of other magic.
     
  5. Kthr

    Kthr Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Which might lead to a battle of will between the person casting the spell and the one that 'owns' the wand.

    We know that theres a link, a bond if you will, between a wand and his master. So maybe the person by allowing the wand to be examined(instead of getting disarmed before the spell was cast) could force the wand to skip a few spells which he would not want anyone to know about.
     
  6. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Bumping, because I was wondering the same. As opposed (?) to Minion's quote, we have this:

    Diggory specifically says "the last spell", not "last spells". Not anymore conclusive than what Harry says -- sounds like Harry's assuming things, tbh. On the other hand, Diggory could be talking about the last spell, because that is what's important at that moment. Also, I wouldn't say that the Reverse Spell Effect is connected to the spell Diggory cast. Both reproduce the last spell(s), but they do so in completely different ways and circumstances.



    The second thing I wondered is what, exactly, comes out of the wand if you use the spell. For a cast Dark Mark, it's a ghost of a Dark Mark. For the killing curses, the P.I. Effect reproduces the "ghosts" of the victims. So far so good, it seems it shows the effect of the spell.

    However, what would be the "effect" if you cast a spell that stopped the heart? You can't see a stopping heart from the outside -- maybe you'd see the victims, again, indicating murder, but then the spell would lose quite a bit of its usefulness, since there would be no separation between two spells, if they have the same ultimate effect. And how would you graphically display the effect of an Imperius Curse, or even a simple Stunning spell, anyway?

    Even worse, what would you see if your Killing Curse didn't actually kill anyone, because it missed the target? There's no effect the P.I. spell could possibly show. If you see nothing, the P.I. spell is dead for reasonable evidence of anything. So maybe it does show the last spell itself, after all. (Where what "the spell itself" is needs to be answered, of course).

    Something I looked at in search of an answer was what happened in the Graveyard. Here's a list of the last spells Voldemort performed before the P.I. took place:


    Cruciatus curse (@Avery).
    Peter's Hand.
    Cruciatus curse (@Harry).
    Spell to make Harry bow.
    Cruciatus curse (@Harry).
    Imperius Curse -- Failed?
    "The curse", probably the Cruciatus curse -- Misses.
    Killing Curse -- Wands connect.​


    And here's what comes out of the wand:


    At once, Voldemorts wand began to emit echoing screams of pain … then - Voldemort's red eyes widened with shock – a dense, smoky hand flew out of the tip of it and vanished … the ghost of the hand he had made Wormtail.


    The screams would be the Cruciatus. The Imperius isn't shown. Neither is the magic used to make Harry bow. The conjured hand is a conjured hand.



    So, bottom line for me: It's not A) conclusive, and B) consistent. If you want it to work in forensics/as reliable proof of anything, you need to tweak the spell. That's not a problem as such, but I'm out of ideas at the moment. Anyone has better ideas what a (failed) Killing Curse/Stunning Spell/Bone Exploding Curse/... could look like than going the lights route (green for Killing Curse, red for Stunning Spell, whatever for Bone Exploding Curse, ...)? :|
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2011
  7. T3t

    T3t Purple Beast of DLP ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Having a pale imitation of the spell come out of the wand might work, or the incantation sounded out in the voice of the caster. That has problems with silent casting, but I can't think of anything else atm.
     
  8. The Berkeley Hunt

    The Berkeley Hunt Headmaster

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    I can't really see any use of a spell being 'forensic' in canon HP. For AUs like a lot of the February competition entrances you need more specific, useful spells and you change them to suit that purpose.

    But canon magic is retarded, and exists to make the world quirky and unusual, thus a spell like Priori Incantatem relatively useless for actual investigation. Even with a superb analysis like Sesc's there, you can never fully tell what a spell is meant to do or its specifics like what colour they are excepting Stupefy and Avada Kedavra, those two most used spells by writers.

    So in answer to the original question, Canon is inconclusive. If your story requires it to be able to see more spells, it can and vice versa.
     
  9. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Well, it is used that way. Diggory ultimately wants to know who cast the Dark Mark, so his first step is to find out whose wand cast the Dark Mark. That's the exact same thing as wanting to find the revolver which has the same type of bullet as the one in the victims head, as well as one bullet missing in the chamber, in order to find the murderer. The tool that was used in the crime is a valuable clue, and this spell can help you find it.

    There doesn't seem to be much use besides forensics to the P.I. spell, tbh. And considering we have a fully functioning Law Enforcement in Canon, I sure see a use for that.


    Here's what I'm probably doing. Prior Incantato reveals the last spell. The spell, in whatever form (probably light*), comes out of the wand and hovers in front of it. If you say Prior Incantato again, the second to last spell comes out etc. You can't do this ad infinitum, the echo of the spells will rapidly become weaker, so eventually, so simply can't see it anymore.

    Deletrius removes all the echos hovering in front of the wand (that's Canon). Pointing a second wand at the tip of the first and saying Deletrius (like it's done with the P.I. spell) will remove all the echoes inside the wand. So if you use P.I. afterwards, nothing will happen, however, it will be clear that the wand has been wiped clean.

    Seems like a reasonable balance between overpowering and crippling Prior Incantato, IMO. Thoughts?




    * After sleeping on it, I don't mind that too much, tbh. It has the nice added advantage that you need some sort of expert from the DoM, whose field is studying what spells produce which colours. He'll need to be able to discern the bright red of the Stunning Spell from the slightly darker and more denser cherry red of the Cruciatus Curse; and spot the thin yellow streaks in the light blue mist that separate the Cutting Curse from a charm that produces water.

    I just need a catchy name for this sort of study.
     
  10. The Berkeley Hunt

    The Berkeley Hunt Headmaster

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    Works very well, if you want that type of spell. But I will stick to my guns that in canon all spells are basically useless tricks Rowling uses to spice up the universe. Even if the use of a spell seems obvious to you or me, it was likely just invented to achieve a plot point, not actually having any true purpose whatsoever. Apart from the Unforgivables and Stupefy, getting any real use out of spells is extrapolating. Though to be fair, you've done some great extrapolating and if there should be a baseline for P.I., I think yours should be it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  11. Rin

    Rin Oberstgruppenführer DLP Supporter

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    I think the real problem here is that it doesn't show why or on whom or on what the spell was used. Whether it missed its target or not is irrelevant if you're casting it at a fellow human being: attempted murder gets you put away for a long time just as murder does.

    The real problem is that if you were defending yourself against a non-human that was attacking you, there's nothing illegal about it. However, it still says you cast a killing curse. How do you prove you weren't casting it at people?

    The wizarding world seems like a guilty-until-proven-innocent kind of place (unless you've got cash). Maybe "I WAS IMPERIUSSED!" works?

    Anyway . . .
    Priori Incantology?
     
  12. enembee

    enembee The Nicromancer DLP Supporter

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    I would have said Deprehentology or even Depremency (From deprehensio; act of coming upon and catching). Partly because it sounds awesome, but also because you could use it as an umbrella term for all Magical CSI-esque techniques.

    EDIT: Also Sesc your post was 44444444. Which I guess is kinda interesting :D
     
  13. nath1607

    nath1607 Groundskeeper

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    You go go another route and use something similar to what we did in Physics, where you could identify the elements found on other stars and planets by using the emission spectrum (is it called that?).
     
  14. Dantrag_tc

    Dantrag_tc Backtraced

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    The whole Priori Incantato -battle between Voldemort and Harry was a bit flawed anyways as Voldemort killed James first and then Lily and then tried to kill Harry, but there is no mention of the killing curse that hit Harry*. The fact that James came before Lily did is either an intetional error or a plothole. Intentional error in the sense, that either the James wasn't dead yet but died later and the magic knew that, or a plothole in that either he was dead or that Wormtail, who must have been at the Hollow to retrieve the wand, used it to kill James. Both cases are plotholes, because if Wormy was there, it simply doesn't make any sense why he didn't finish Harry off as well.

    *It hit because of the scar and was then either redirected back to the caster or it was simply the backlash of Lily's protection that destroyed Voldemorts body and the house at Godric's Hollow. I doubt James was able to stall Voldemort that much to destroy the entire building, since Harry's nursery or what ever was still intact.
     
  15. Blazzano

    Blazzano Unspeakable

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    Not quite either any more, though "plothole" is the closer of the two.

    James coming out first was an error that was noticed almost immediately. It was also corrected ASAP, which is why it's no longer a plot hole: other than the initial print run, all the newer printings of the book have Lily coming out first. My own (softcover) copy has the fixed text.
     
  16. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    Chromathaumatology

    Thaumaturgy is the art of making miracles/magic (blame John Dee for this one)
    -ology for 'study of'
    chroma- for 'color'

    I'm all for it, including some version of the deletrius to 'wipe clean' a potentially incriminating wand. If you don't dig a spell, a potion would be cool as well- again, the lack of spell echoes only revealing that the (no doubt illegal) potion/spell had been applied.

    Further, there may be secondary analysis spells, devices or concoctions a CSI: Hogsmeade team might specialize in.
     
  17. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    So basically... The Colour of Magic.