Read a fanfic earlier- from the first page of FF.net- to see if anything decent had been wrote recently, and one of them had muggles seeing the Dark Mark and crowding around like you see in comic books with Superman... and I was wondering if that was right, or wether the Dark Mark is like Dementors and is invisible to muggles?

 

I once posited that Muggles can't (won't?) see any magic happening at all. I figured they could see the results of magic - Harry shrinking the sweater and inflating Aunt Marge, the Muggle PM's teacup-turned-hamster, et al - but that the magic behind it is invisible to them.

I remember the discussion thread once up a time, wherein the colors of spells was argued or something, and that's when I came up with my hypothesis on it. In my scenario, Muggles watching a couple of wizards fight would see the two of them waving sticks at each other and being tossed around or cut or the ground erupting, but no spell-light.

Anyway, I don't remember any canon evidence contradicting that, but didn't care enough (and still don't) to try looking it up. I think it's (sort of) backed up by (1) Dementors and the question of whether Squibs could see them, (2) the Knight Bus and Stan's dismissive anecdotes about Muggles, and (3) Amelia Bones' death being advertised, yet no mention of "weird skull-clouds" even though she was reportedly killed by LV himself.

/my $0.02

 

If that theory's true then I wonder whether the Patronus Charm could be seen.

 

Dudley would have said something about it if he had. As far as I remember all Dudley says after the dementor attack is that, "He used his stick." when Vernon says "Go on son, tell us what he did".

 

To be fair, Dudley was busy getting mind-fucked at the time, so his vagueness is understandable. Plus, he thought from the get-go that Harry was causing the Dementor effect, hence his punching Harry when it all went dark.

The fact that Mrs. Figg wasn't bodily present to witness the Patronus also sheds no light on whether Squibs can see the Dementors or the Patronus. Of course, Mr. Filch *works* inside a magical place despite being a Squib, so unless he has a fanon Muggle-Repelling-Charm-countering amulet, he can at least see enough of the magical world to half-ass his job.

And before a canon-cop comes in to once again split hairs on the differences between Squibs and Muggles or (probably rightly) point out that magic could differentiate between the two, I know all that already.

 

I honestly thought the fact that Figg could testify to "seeing the Dementors" at his trial meant that Squibs could see magic... otherwise Fudge would've probably been written saying "Squibs can't see it" unless it's one of those times where JK forgets all her plot details.

 

I'm not sure about this but I seem to recall that at some point muggles do see flashes of light somewhere. It may be during the encounter between Sirius and Pettigrew after the Potters' death?

edit: with squibs, Filch being at Hogwarts should be proof enough?

 

Personally, I don't see how muggles not seeing magic even matters. It's not going to make or a break a story if they cannot see a dark mark.

But, I think they can see most magics. Otherwise, the statue of secrecy wouldn't be so important. Most muggles who see the Dark Mark probably get memory charmed. If not, they probably just do what most muggles do, and try to come up with a plausible explanation of what they saw, and in this case, probably fireworks or something. Even if magic was staring at them in the face, they probably think it some new unreleased technology instead of facing the truth.

 

The problem of Filch can be resolved fairly easily if one considers the anti-Muggle charms to be outward facing only. That is, a Muggle outside the edge of the charms' effect would be affected, but a Muggle inside them wouldn't be. And we don't really hear about Filch ever leaving the grounds.

 

It's more than just that though. Hogwarts is full of magic. I don't think they would appoint filch as caretaker or whatever his title is if he couldn't see magic.

 

I thought we are talking about if MUGGLES can see Magic and NOT SQUIBS?

Wouldn't it be stupid to not have Squibs see magic?

 

Figg didn't see the Dementors, and can't see Dementors. She did know the signs of an attack, and identified those - and said as much in Harry's trial in OotP.

There's no reason to consider Squibs and Muggles as different other than genealogy - Canon states Muggleborns, Halfbloods and Purebloods are all equal wizards. Conversely, Squibs and Muggles are likely equal, non magically, except in terms of knowledge due to family.

 

Yeah, but if muggles COULD see magic, then they would be able to see the attacks and what not mentioned in HBP by Fudge to the muggle PM. Also, if they could see magic, then they there would be a lot more hoo haa about the 'mysterious deaths' of people like Emmeline Vance ( At least I think it was her in the beginning of book 6), as she was a witch, and almost definitely would have a dark mark above her house after her death, something that would be EXTREMELY noticeable because she lived in the PM's 'back yard' as it were.

 

All of which is explained by the existence of Obliviation.

 

Indeed, but I sincerely doubt that they would be able to obliviate every single muggle and all evidence of something as big as a skull with a snake coming out of its mouth. On a side note, anyone think that Voldemort has a thing for bestiality?

 

One wizarding family (presumably one wizard and one witch) was able to Obliviate an entire beach worth of Muggles when a dragon attacked. Only one Muggle got away. And those are non-professionals, just using Obliviation. It's possible (even likely, given that the Muggles haven't discovered the wizarding world) that magical governments have other means than individual Obliviation to enforce secrecy.

 

Hmm. Valid point, but I still think though that muggles can't see the magic, and there cannot be a major obliviation process that wipes every muggle that was affected clean of the memory. I'm pretty sure that eventually they would slip up, and also, Diagon Alley is a magical place no? Muggles can't see it though, therefore my reasoning is that they can't see magic. So far, the only way to see Diagon Alley is to be led into it by magical people, and I guess the idea is, that once someone is in the magic, they can see it, but if they are outside of it, they can't.

 

I'm pretty sure the first book mentions muggles seeing a large amount of shooting stars or fireworks in the first chapter before Harry was dropped off at the Dursleys, so they can see something.

 

Yeah, but Dudley can't see the patronus charm, and dementors, which are quite obviusly magical beings. Also, Wizards can see Diagon Alley via the Leakey Cauldron, which muggles can't see.