Why don't you try reading more posts than just the one above yours? You're failing abysmally at arguing shit that's already been brought up.

 

I have no doubt the wizards charmed the Leaky Cauldron same as they did Hogwarts. As for the dementors, perhaps they did the same thing? They were working for the Ministry at this time, so it might be possible. Besides, the dementors are magical creatures, and not a spell casting. A majority of the Hogwarts population couldn't see thestrals.

So perhaps you do need magic to see dementors, but it still isn't comparable to seeing the Dark Mark in the sky.

I wouldn't use Dudley as the prime example muggles can't see magic. He probably had no way explaining what he saw and felt anyway, beyond 'waved stick and flash of light'.

Forgot about accidental magic, that happens but muggles just don't know how to explain it because to them magic isn't real and there is a more believable reason for it to occur. Example: Timmy colored his hair blue with markers.

 

Dudley is not the right person to use as evidence for whether Muggles can see Patronus charms. While Harry was directing his Patronus around, Dudley had instinctively covered his face with his arms - the book describes the Dementor prying his arms apart.

After the Dementors were driven back, Dudley would have still been in a state of shock. So between that, and the reasonable probability that he had his eyes closed for part of the time, it's easy to see why he couldn't describe anything more than Harry using "his stick" against him.

 

Muggles can see all magic except that which is specifically charmed against them (e.g. Leaky Cauldron, Knight Bus, possibly Dark Mark) or naturally invisible to them (e.g. Dementors).

That said, there's an argument for certain types of magic not giving off any light. For example, Transfiguration seems to be instant-effect in some cases. I've never encountered a canon instance of a Transfiguration being used that missed it's target.

 

In my OotP-book she says that squibs can see dementors.

 

In my OotP book people can lie, and behaving shiftily and giving explanations like "black with cloaks" and describing them as walking is a sure sign of it, especially as we know from the narration of the Dementor's scene that Figg doesn't arrive until after Harry chases the Dementors away.

(Also, JKR said on her website that Figg lied, but even without that I think there's enough stuff in the book to reach that conclusion).

 

I believe we can conclude from the rarity of OotP books, that Figg did not see the Dementors.

 

^Don't start, ho.

 

Okay fine, maybe Dudley isn't really the best example, but I still think that the argument is valid. Perhaps though, the same thing about relating to thestrals applies to the dark mark, and the only way to see it is if you have magic, or have seen the death, making the obliviating easier.

 

I would think that, seeing as Voldemort's intention was for the Mark to send a clear message to everyone, and that he has a lack of concern for laws about concealing magic, Muggles should certainly be able to see it.

I sort of like Portus' idea that Muggles can't see the actual spells flying through the air as wizards can, but can still see the effects.

 

I'd agree with the above comment. The Dark Mark is a tool for instilling terror, rather than just a calling sign. Sure, most muggles that see it wouldn't understand it; but Voldemort doesn't like them so why would he, or any of his Death Eaters, try to spare them from it? If muggles see it, then it is more work for the Ministry to do while not catching Death Eaters. Even if it was claimable that 'Voldemort wants to separate wizards and muggles', he just doesn't seem like someone who would follow the rules, unless he is mocking it.

It also might be that most wizards live separately from muggles. In these cases, it wouldn't matter because there are no muggles around to see it.

In the end it's a moot point. Choose which ever route you prefer.

 

Goblet of Fire, chapter 1, Frank Bryce, Riddle Manor's gardener, sees a flash of green light and hears a rushing sound before dropping dead (second-to-last paragraph of Ch1).

 

Mate, that says jack shit about the dark mark.

 

It says a lot more about it than random suggestions that have absolutely no basis.

The Frank Bryce incident shows pretty conclusively that Muggles can see magic. That includes the Dark Mark, unless you can give some good reason for why the Dark Mark would be different.

 

Well, as I stated before, the dark mark would probably be different, as it very well could be something, as I previously stated, that only those that have seen the death can see, as Voldemort is shown not to be stupid, due to the fact that muggles outnumber magical folk and would not want to draw attention to himself before he was ready to take em out.

 

It could be, yeah. However, the Dark Mark in canon is known as Voldemort's symbol of terror. That implies that the general public had a certain degree of familiarity with it. IIRC, Arthur Weasley talks about coming home to find the Dark Mark floating above your house as the ultimate fear of most people in those times. It would be much less effective as a mark of conquest if only those who have seen death (probably not a lot) can see it - in my mind, it's kind of the opposite. If you see it, it's sort of a warning that you're about to see some corpses.

Also, IIRC, not many people could see the thestrals in canon, so again that shows how few of the wizarding population actually have witnessed death, which would severely reduce the impact of the Dark Mark.

All things aside, this is all conjecture. There is no evidence to suggest that the Dark Mark is in any way different from other spells, so I see no reason why to presume otherwise. The stuff about muggles would, I think, both be easily written off as some weird fireworks or create some work for the Obliviators - which would put more stress on the Ministry, meaning that muggles seeing it would really be a plus for Voldemort.

 

I honestly think it is ridiculous that anyone but another death eater can see the dark mark. I mean he literally painted an "arrest me" sign on their arm.

Sigh Why did JK have to make Voldemort an idiot.

 

You misunderstand. I meant that the only muggles that would be able to see the mark would be the ones that saw the murder, quite obviously the magical people would be able to see it. Perchance that could be the catch, that only those with magic could see the mark, and those who saw the death would be able to see it as well. And before you say anything about squibs, they don't not have any magic, they just don't have enough to make them able to do spells and what not.

 

If Voldemort really cared about not being spotted by Muggles, he wouldn't have his Death Eathers collapsing bridges and do enough damage to simulate a hurricane. He even had so much Dementors out on the street, it actually changed the weather.

And having seen death has nothing to do with it either. Harry could see the Dark Mark at the World Cup, but couldn't see Thestrals.

Really, there's no good reason to assume that Muggles can't see magic or the Dark Mark.

Edit: Making it so, that only those Muggles who've seen death, can see the Dark Mark doesn't make sense. Why would he do that? And it actually goes against the whole 'Voldemort doesn't want Muggles to know' theory, that you were suggesting in the same sentence.

 

Really mate, learn to read. I just said that only muggles wouldn't be able to see the mark unless they saw the death. Not magical people. And also, the muggles can't see who is causing the chaos can they, it could just be a tactic to divert the resistances efforts elsewhere, making his job easier.