Sooo, the fight with Akasuna No Sasori was all in everyone's dreams? And before you even start with the 'being controlled by Chiyo', that was only during part of it, and it was a valid tactic. Sakura was the one to synthesize a cure for his poisons to be used in battle. She survived, and during the Attack of Endless Puppets, pushing him harder and harder and harder and then ended up Mulching his 'heart'. If Chiyo thought she could have beaten Sasori without Sakura, I'm pretty sure she would have. But she couldn't. Sakura's a Team Player. Which is what Ninja are supposed to be.

Also, she isn't supposed to be a front line Fighter. She's a Medic. She heals people. Which is exactly what she's been doing. All of her combat abilities are meant to give her an ability to defend herself on the battlefield while she does her best to heal. They were secondary in importance to Tsunade while teaching and thus they are not up to that level yet. Let me tell you, any real soldier would much rather that Medic who is patching you, or your buddies/comrades up be a Medic than Just Another Grunt.


As for Hinata. Her fight against Neji was what it was. She got her ass kicked and almost killed. Yep, but it was also one of the first steps on a path that was and is supposed to lead to greater confidence in herself, which every fighter and shinobi Needs. And against Pein/Nagato? You really think it would have been better to let Naruto get captured and convinced he was a failure? /Really/? The release of the Kyuubi (Which got to Eight Tails, before the end, not six), was what allowed Naruto to escape his grasp, Meet his Father, regain his confidence and eventually find Nagato thus stopping the Pein Invasion and destroying one of the founders of Akatsuki.

Without Hinata it would not have happened like that. It is, in fact, quite possible, if you look at the attitude he has prior to her intervention. That he would have given up and just let himself be captured. Meaning that Konoha, already weakened, would have had to stage a rescue mission /if they could/. And none of the people that Nagato rezzed after his and Naruto's talk would have done so. Kakashi, Shizune, etc etc etc. All still dead, cause Hinata wasn't there to do the /right/ thing and try to help Naruto despite the fact she KNEW she was going to get her ass killed, since she's 'just a waste of paper and ink' and should be removed, the way you want. It's called Personal Sacrifice, and is one of The most respectable things any combatant can do.

But you wouldn't know that, would you? You're most likely naught but a Webpage Warrior. "HURR DURR, THEY LOST SO THEY FAIL." It doesn't matter if what they were fighting for is honorable, or respectable. It doesn't matter if what they're doing is literally sacrificing themselves for someone important. They Lost So They Fail.

You're an ass. Go watch DBZ Kai or someshit if that's all you care about.

What you fail to realize, I think, is that Kishimoto still carries some very, very traditional thoughts about women and stories. They are not Main Characters. They are not Focuses. They're used for plot advancement and Romance. You can't actually tell me that any of the females in that series won more battles than they lost on screen. Not a single one. Even the best of them (Temari, Tsunade, Konan) only draw themselves to an At Best 1:1 win-loss ratio on screen.

Also, no, You're wrong about Nagato, Toothpicks. The Rinnegan confers all those abilities upon the user of the Rinnegan, Nagato is and was capable of using every single ability each of the 'paths' showed. He is the one who decided to split them up into separate bodies and control them like a team of Shinobi, which is, in the end, really damn smart. He can do anything and everything all of the 'bodies' could except the Android/Cyborg like abilities of The Naraka Path (dude with missiles that Naruto Crunches, bald.) He is a Kage-Level and better Shinobi, even without the Paths, or I don't think Uchiha-BAMF-Itachi would be speaking to him with such respect.

However, he weakened himself incredibly, physically, to take up that advantage. And basically confined himself to a really-fancy wheelchair.


You are, however, correct about the Endgame of the current War going on, except for that no-one has any idea WTF Kabuto's game is and I have some serious doubts he's going to be happy being part of Madara's Moon's Eye Plan.

 

That would have been true if he wasn't in a malnourished and atrophied body that hasn't moved in at least years.

Oh wai-

In any case, I don't think one's abilities should be judged by his win/loss ratio. Look at Kakashi, heck, look at Pain himself. We've only seen him battle twice, and he lost one fight (arguably, what with Hinata's intervention). Kakashi has lost the majority of the battles he participated in, nameless grunts notwithstanding, yet we all assume he is hax because he won a few and is said to be hax, and that's fine.
I don't think we've seen Jiraiya take part in more than three, maybe four, battles. And he lost at least two of them, if you count the one with Orochimaru as a loss instead of a draw. (if my numbers are incorrect, then meh, my memory is bad). The list of characters goes on.

What I'm saying is, we must always consider the circumstances of each fight, and how both combatants measure up to each other, not just the outcome and the numbers.

 

Okay, so he's not very mobile. To be honest? For anything less than a Kage-Level power he really doesn't need to be. He can still knock you around like a rag doll just by gesturing at you, summon hordes of nasty ass critters (including those immortal hydra-dogs), suck out your soul, summon the King of Hell to drag your soul down to hell, use Any elemental or non elemental non-bloodline jutsu, see Chakra, absorb whatever Jutsu you throw at him, and create an effing Moon.

Agreed. That was part of my argument against Toothpicks. Just not as concise.

 

I don't see either Itachi or Nagato doing anything to give Kabuto and Madara an advantage unless they are forced. Which includes bringing back the individual paths.

I personally wonder if it requires more of Kabutos attention to control someone like Nagato or Itachi. Would be a valid reason as to why they haven't been forced to fight when combined odds are good that combined they would rip through the villages like Naruto and Bee should rip through the zetsus and zombies.

 

http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showpost.php?p=458953&postcount=4954

And just for the record, Naruto is pretty much the only Shonen manga I've read in its entirety. I've read some Bleach, a fair amount of early Dragon Ball, and a couple of the DBZ chapters before I couldn't stand any more of the 'power level' bullshit. Generally, I stick to stuff in the realm of Vagabond, Lone Wolf and Cub, Berserk, Ghost in the Shell, and Akira because the art is something I can tolerate. For instance, I can't read Fairytale or One Piece at all, even though I heard they're both quite enjoyable.

Well, I'm pretty sure that the Naraka path isn't a cyborg. I'm also really certain that human bodies can be made into puppets that have the abilities they had in life. It certainly makes sense that Nagato used a process similar to th- Oh wait, Naruto doesn't make any sense... Right. Carry on.

I loled at 'Uchiha-BAMF-Itachi'. If there's one that Kishimoto has taught me, its that women shouldn't be treated as human beings and that Uchiha Itachi is the biggest strawman of the entire series.

Kabuto's game is being played on so many levels, with such cunning and depth, that not even he knows what it is. The more I see 'Madara' standing around and monologing, the more I have serious doubts that 'Madara' is even interested in carrying out the 'Moon Eye Plan'. I'm half expecting a Code Geass ending with 'Madara' cast as Lelouch.

 

Christ, I leave this thread for two days and there is a page and a half of fanboy butthurt. No-one cares about either side, get on with it.

The real question to be asking is who has plotted the most. Madara and Kabutomaru are both counterplotting, but it seems that holding Itachi and Nagato in reserve is going to be a big plus for Kabutomaru. Even if Madara can get everything together for his plan in the end, those two can punch through just about anything short of Naruto himself, and may be able to take the Ten Tailed Beast for Kabutomaru. If Madara can actually assemble his plan that is...

 

Thank god you're here- Save us from the butthurt! Sooth our aching anuses!:awesome

On a more salient note: I cannot believe I wasted a post talking about which was worse, Sakura or Hinata. Damn.

@ The Berkley Hunt:
Kabutomaru is a little fish swimming in a big pond that suddenly found a rocket launcher. Somehow, it managed to make it work with its fins- and one of the bigger fish said: "Wow, that's some rocket launcher you've got there. And you can use it? Neat. Point it over there."

'Madara' is crazy. Like, delusions of grandeur, saves his feces, and never takes baths crazy.

So who's got a better plan? Tough choice. My guess would be 'Madara'.

 

Madara has been planning this for decades, as powerful as Nagato and Itachi are I doubt they can really do much to stop it.

 

Madara is also crazier than a yellow toe-monkey. Kabutomaru is the amalgamation of Kabuto's subtle insidiousness and Orochimaru's canny experience.

Together they almost equal Madara in years, and they have the advantage of controlling 80% of the action on the ground. When it comes down to it, Madara has the muscle on him, but if Itachi and Nagato can turn that balance even a little in favour of Kabutomaru, he will capitalize like a motherfucker.

 

Madara is crazy like a fox.

If you're looking for the guy who lost his marbles look at the dude who pissed off every major character in the series and turned himself into a snake monster, then went into a battle of wills with a sociopath kid with super mind-fuck abilities.

 

And lost to said kid only to end up becoming part of Kabuto

 

I think that's his point. Madara's not the insane one per say, Orochimaru was.

 

He has been planning for years but until it actually happens it doesn't matter how much planning he has done. Itachi and Nagato separately are as powerful as anyone on either side with the except of Naruto. Together they are all but unstoppable and they are under Kabutos control. Kabuto who is even more insane than Madara. If Kabuto decides Madara is getting in getting in the way of his goals he can take Madara out of the picture.

 

I...don't think its that simple. I think you forgot about the upgrade Madara has by installing Nagato's eyes. That's on top of his existing abilities, which are not entirely clear/explained except for that time/space jutsu. So yeah, everything is unclear at this point.

And lulz@SakuraFanbois.

 

Plus, we have no idea whether or not he used outer path, he said he was hoping for Nagato to use it on him, if he uses it on himself... He is back at full power with a rinnegan. Yeah

 

If Kabuto had any chance of stopping Madara, and I mean any, Madara would've killed him already, plain and simple.

 

If Kabuto was a threat, and 'Madara' is "crazy like a fox," then Kabuto would be dead. However, if he isn't "crazy like a fox" then who the fuck knows?

 

Madara wouldn't have accepted his help unless he had an ace in the hole able to easily take Kabuto out of the equation, i.e. sharingan mind control?

Kabuto and Sasuke must both realize Madara will get rid of them when they serve their purpose, you can sure as hell bet that both Sasuke and Kabuto have plans to stab Madara in the back once they both use Madara for their own goals.

 

Exactly. Im interested in what Sasuke's plan is, since hes a) supremely arrogant and b) lacking resources. However, considering the series' history of massive, violent asspulls in his favour I think his back up will end up doing something important, eg. activating the Uchiha fragment left by Itachi in Naruto and uniting them into a proper sage.

That said, if that happens I will be so annoyed. I dont want to be able to predict the end, but given the precedent for this type of shit I wouldn't be surprised.

 

Wait, Sasuke and 'plan' in the same sentence? How is this possible? Sasuke has never been known for his well thought out and logical plans. As a character and a fighter, he's a big, dumb hammer- even more than Naruto is now. He relies on ridiculous ninjutsu, his fairly high caliber taijutsu, and his god-mode eyes to succeed.

What I'm hoping will happen is Naruto and 'Madara' fight. Naruto wins but 'Madara' is still barely alive. Sasuke comes on, dragging Tsunade's lifeless corpse and another fight commences. Powerups are unleashed, and eventually Naruto beats Sasuke. However, 'Madara' manages to come out of nowhere and rips the Kyuubi straight out of Naruto with his Rinnegan/ Sharingan combo.

As he lies bleeding on the ground, Sasuke uses the last of his strength to give the dying Naruto his eyes (as a symbol of his redemptive suicide), creating the ultimate Sharingan, the Eyes of Deus Ex Machina, fueled by combination of sage chakra and the remains of the Kyuubi's energy. However, 'Madara' has managed to capture the eight tails in the mean time, and awakens the Jyuubi. 'Madara' loses control of the nigh omnipotent beast and is killed by his own plan. Naruto then fights the Jyuubi to a standstill, before he finally sacrifices himself to the death god to bind the Jyuubi forever.