Naruto (the first series), Episode 95-96 (a double-special), from minutes 25-onward till the end of the battle. She heals herself from being Stabbed Through The Chest with The Kusanagi, then slaps Orochimaru around like a sad little stepchild despite having done that healing (or regeneration, as she names it) And having just gotten over a severe psychological disorder that an elite-jounin level opponent had exploited to beat her around.

So yeah, I don't think Kakashi could beat her, especially not after she got back in shape once she took the Mantle of Hokage.

And, the lack of an Uchiha Hokage was because the only one who ever really had the possibility to get there (Madara) lost the title in favor of Senju Hashirama.

The fact that it was the reason for the attempted coup/massacre doesn't have any bearing on the fact that a Sharingan Fighting Style was never enough to make anyone Hokage.

 

For those who cant be bothered to check, yes that's Sannin three-way where Orochimaru can't use his arms.

 

Supposed to be. And despite all we've seen from Gai, Kakashi's yet to go all out on-screen since his battle with Zabuza, and he's had upgrades since then.

Yes, because losing her disadvantage and beating on a crippled shinobi is clearly a good test of her skills.

Tsuande was a rusty drunk who had hemaphobia who nearly got killed by a toying Kabuto. Part 1 her post-Sannin fight would beat Kakashi, pre-Sannin fight would lose, Part 2 would probably draw or lose barely.

It has exists because he has the Sharingan. If he hadn't had the Sharingan, he wouldn't be Copy-cat Kakashi, wouldn't have a thousand jutsu, and would probably be an Asuma-level ninja. Kakashi having the Sharingan is the underlying basis of his entire character and skill-set.

... There's a reason for that genius. It's called the entire backstory of Konoha. You know, the Uchiha/Senju rivalry, the seeming decline of the Uchiha clan's fortunes, the Senju's list of badass shinobi, not to mention the fact not everyone reaches 3-tomoe, let along Mangyeko Sharingan. It's a skill developed just like the Eight Gates or the Byakugan, so while main characters like Madara, Sasuke and Itachi were epic with it to an insane degree, everyone else had varying levels of skill and development with it.

 

I don't watch the anime-in the manga, Tsunade gets stabbed in the chest, pushes Orochimaru back, regenerates, knocks him back again, and then three-way summon battle ensues. That's not really enough for me to think she beat him like a red-headed stepchild. And if we're going to disregard the fact that the Uchiha were deliberately left out of the position of Hokage, I'll venture that the entire line of argument is invalid-there were only four Hokage's total before the Uchiha were massacred; the Sharingan fighting style doesn't have any bearing on who was made Hokage.

Also, what Hashasheen just said.

 

Itachi beat the crap out of Kakashi in there mini battle in episode 82, and then defeated him with Tsukiyomi. Tsunade was forced to heal him. As for Tsunade being stronger then Kakashi it depends on the situation imo, if he blows off her head with his mangekyo she is dead. However in a straight fight she defeated Orchimaru in taijutsu [though he didn't have his arms] and can probably heal through any attacks Kakashi uses.

 

Everone seems to forget Kakashi was considered a prodigy before getting the sharingan. He was a jonin by like 12. Developed the chidori by that age too. Getting the sharingan was a boostto his abilities yes, a huge boost. It took him from an great jonin to a kage level ninja. And its not like Sasuke who in a matter of a couple years became one of the strongest Shinobi in the world. Kakashi has spent years working on developing his sharingan and honing his skill with it.

 

I know, I'm looking forward to it as well. Since my original argument was that I didn't like him getting (or 'revealing') the Mangekyo back during the Gaara Retreival Arc, as it justt smacked of author laziness.

She didn't just 'lose her disadvantage', she had already taken a hell beating, and using the Souso Saisei consumed an assload of Chakra.

A. I doubt he'd be an 'Asuma Level Ninaj'. The Man was a jounin around the same age Itachi was an Anbu Commander (roughly the same rank, just in different sections of the forces). Also, he was said to be as talented as his father, you know, Konoha's White Fang, said to be as strong or stronger than any one The Sannin in their prime?

B. My entire point is that you need more than 'I have a Sharingan Hurr Durr and I use it Herp Derp' to be a Hokage Level Ninja. As you yourself said there were lots of Uchiha with lots of Sharingan, many of whom achieved three tomoe and could copy/predict/genjutsu just as or nearly as well.

Honestly, I don't think the Sandaime was part of the 'No Uchiha Hokage' conspiracy. Yes, they were massacred under his rule, but canon basically states that it was because of A. Nasty ass political maneuvering (Thanks Danzo!) and B. they were already on the brink of revolt, not much to do at that point. I'm pretty sure that if he'd seen a Hokage Level Shinobi within the ranks of the Uchiha, he would have gladly given the position, or made it known that said Shinobi was under consideration for the Title, as it would have done quite a bit to calm down said Uchiha. The Sandaime was just too much of a open minded, forgiving sort to be part of any prejudice against his people.


To be perfectly honest? I'm of the opinion that Kakashi's grief and tendency to shoulder all of the guilt for the death of his comrades, and being unable to move past that guilt, is holding him back from his full potential. Does it give a depth and humanity to his character, the fact that he still mourns daily? Yes. But I don't doubt that if much of that time was used training instead, he'd be a far more dangerous opponent. Kakashi himself is seen to be commenting at some point (near the beginning of Shippuden) that he needs to kick up his training a notch.

My argument is not that Kakashi isn't a strong ninja. He /is/ a strong ninja. Epically so, from what I understand and what we've been told. But I am of the opinion that giving him the Mangekyo Sharingan was just a cheap powerup meant to remove the burden of having to develop more depth, breadth and range to his Fighting Style other than 'Use the Sharingan and The Chidori'.

I want to see more than that, dammit. I like Kakashi (mostly). I want to see him go all out, I want to see him show his potential, show that the Sharingan took an already Absurdly Talented Ninja (Chuunin by 6!) and just made him /much more dangerous/.

Not that the Sharingan took an Average Level Ninja and made him Epically Dangerous. That's not as cool, that's not as fun, and that's not as appreciable. I want Kakashi to be badass on his own merits and the Sharingan make him moreso. Not just turn him into another 'Flip The Sharingan Win Switch' Shallow character.

Tsunade, being somewhat smarter than Deidara, wouldn't just stand there while he 'blew her head off'. Nor is she a Long-Range fighter like Deidara was. Whenever we do see her fight she is shown to be an extremely close range specialist in Taijutsu. Getting up close and personal and then blasting a person with her Scares-Fucking-Everybody level strength. Meaning it'd be hard for Kakashi to get the time to aim properly, as it's been shown that the skill is not instant-use. He has many, many other skills to use. I'd never say that he would be an easy fight, not in the slightest. But there would be no quick resolution to a battle between two Ninja of such power. No matter which way it went.

 

Edit: Ignore This >_>

 

Yo ItsAprocess i'm really happy for you and imma let you finish but Sasuke is one of the greatest Naruto characters of all time!

hah I keed

 

ROFL.

And Sakura's the hottest chick on the show, amirite? :awesome

Fuck man. just.. gawd. I thought you were serious there for a moment.

 

She used the chakra to negate the damage taken, and unless I'm mistaken, she then beat up Orochimaru with her natural strength. No chakra-required there.

In an era of war, where such promotions occur faster from casualties. He also became chunin at the age of six. And don't diss Asuma. The man had a multi-million ryo bounty on his head, was a bodyguard for the Daimyo and was the son of a Hokage. It's not exactly an insult.

Source?

... Please don't twist my words:

I wouldn't call it canon. We assume it to be canon, but we hear it from Madara and Danzo. Two lying liars who lie.

You're pretty sure? Considering that the only way of choosing a Hokage that we've seen on screen has been through the Daimyo and a collection of the Hokage and his advisers who were supposedly anti-Uchiha and then being confirmed by the Jounin, I'd say the Uchiha wouldn't exactly have much faith in the Hokage promising them the seat when they were completely isolated from most of the village and ninja that would be needed to make an Uchiha Hokage a permanent one.

... He drops by a memorial every day. He doesn't live there. And you forget the man was ANBU Commander, potential Hokage, S-rank shinobi and all-round badass. Any more ability and he'd have to be the main character or a villain.

 

I love how we can argue about stuff that doesn't matter like this.

 

In the Kakashi Gaiden episodes Minato states the the White Fang is greater then the Sannin.

 

The rest of the arguments are valid, and I'll get to them in a time, but this one is the easiest and I have time at the moment.

There is a /reason/ that Kakashi is eternally tardy/late. He spends inordinate amounts of time staring at the stone. Hours upon hours. It's either A. confirmed canon or B. Heavily Implied. I'm not quite sure where.

He doesn't just leave everybody and everyone waiting for hours at a time, often enough that he's known for it, because he feels like giving every single one of them a giant 'Fuck You!' gesture whenever they have to interact with him by making them wait on him for no damn reason.

You also forget that he was Potential Hokage when all other good candidates were gone and /after/ his own 'kicking his training up a notch'. Kakashi is a powerful Shinobi, but I'm pretty sure at this point that Naruto could beat him. Hell, I'm pretty sure Naruto could have beaten him during the Pein Invasion Arc. Considering the fact that Naruto Beat Pein and Kakashi didn't even come Close.

You see, I've always thought of Kakashi as High-Ass-A-Rank with the Potential to be S-Rank.

And even amongst said ranks, there are levels. A relatively new S-Rank, like, say, Deidara, has nothing on an S-rank like say, Itachi, or Pein/Nagato.

It's shown, from what I've seen in the Manga and the Anime, that Three Tomoe was fairly common amongst those who have activated it. We see it in Itachi's Dad, in The Eye Obito Gave Kakashi, in Random Uchiha-Cops Itachi Pwns and in the eyes of a couple of Madara-Flashback! Uchiha, I believe.

I don't agree with the argument about it being a Skill Developed just like others. For Instance, not all Hyuuga have the capability to see the Chakra Opening Points, like Neji can. But they can all see the Chakra Pathways. It's a stated canon fact that Bloodlines are stronger in some than they are in others. Because bloodlines are genetic traits, and genetic traits are often stronger in some than they are in others. I have a strong genetic trait for Height (it effing sucks, my poor head). Neither of my parents were particularly tall. Bloodlines are not just 'Oh, you were born with the key that allows you to follow this path of training/powers/abilities' with the same amount of potential that everyone else has.

You're right, however, that the Mangekyo was/is supposed to be a rare and powerful ability. Which is part of the reason Why Kakashi getting it pissed me off. He's not an Uchiha, he has only one Eye, and he Did Not kill his 'Precious Person'/Best Friend etc etc. Itachi Did, Sasuke Did, Madara Did. Kakashi did not. Feeling guilty for Obito's death by 'not being able to protect him' and being the one to actively and intentionally crush the light of Life from his eyes are Entirely Different Things.

 

Well, Sasuke didn't kill Itachi, his illness did, but the trauma with it unlocked his if I remember right, I might be wrong though, if so, ignore this.

Also, I thought it said that the advisers and Danzo wanted to do pre-emptive action against the Uchiha, the Third wanted a peaceful solution, but time ran out, so he ordered Itachi to do what he must. I kinda get from this that the fact that Itachi had to kill Shishui means that Shishui may have discovered-while keeping an eye on him for the clan- that he was reporting the coup and Itachi was forced to kill him, and the clan planned to begin the coup a few days after Itachi killed them, or atleast within a short time period, if the negotiation period was up.

I don't remember Minato saying that about the White Fang, I thought he just said he was a well respected ninja.

I'm curious, who predicted Tsunade wouldn't just agree with Naruto after his "talk no jutsu"?

 

He stated the the title of White Fang was greater then even the sannin, as with Kakashi's mangekyo it is quite weird imo, it just uses Kamui not the other 3 techniques so it is obviously incomplete. He is S Class Level no doubt, but he isn't high end like Itachi/Nagato. TBH Kakashi's main technique requires the Sharingan, if he has never got it he probably would of found a way around like Naruto did with Rasenshurikan.

 

Wrong. That's purely Fanon. Kakashi was late perhaps all of three times on-screen, and it wasn't hours upon hours of them waiting for him.

Danzo. Naruto. Yamato. The Ino-Shika-Cho trio. Hyuuga Hiashi. All of those are good candidates with name value to merit position.

... Naruto is the main character, the son of a previous Hokage, descended from a powerful dead clan, the student of a Sannin, and a Jinchuriki. His being able to beat Kakashi should be expected by now, as is him beating Pein after Pein spent his time destroying the fuck out of Konoha.

Manga supersedes. Obito's eye wasn't a full-developed eye, Itachi's dad was the head of the clan, and three Uchiha cops. 6 to 8 people out of an entire clan over several generations is not fairly common.

You don't have to agree with it. It's a fact. Neji and Hinata train their eyes to see further and further, and unless you're telling me Kakashi instinctively managed to hypnotize Zabuza, he trained his eye to do it. Which means skill development is a part of improving one's skill with a Sharingan.

And?

... If you think your genetic heritage starts and stops with your parents alone, then ... :facepalm

Not everyone has the same amount of potential, in fact I said the exact opposite. That's twice you've re-written my words. I'm starting to get annoyed.

*shrugs* Get over it.

 

Zabuza, and the majority of Hidden Mist Ninja as well as Taijutsu proficient dudes, beg to differ.

Yeah? and what happened to "hurr durr I'll bring you back even if I have to break all your bones lol" business?



As to Kakashi's Mangekyo, it was out of the blue, sure, but not exactly retarded. It has been heavily implied, if not stated outright, that in "killing your best friend" it's not the "killing" part which awakens the Mangekyo. It's that little part of your soul that dies with that act that awakens it. Through the few uchihas that managed to awaken it, the circumstances were so, that the Uchihas concluded that by killing friends or family your gain the Mangekyo. Not so.

At least, thats what Madara said when he explained to Sasuke why he suddenly could through badass flames and a giant ghost/transformer insta-win around.

 

Kakashi beat Zabuza.

Where is that post of mine from? Because clicking on it takes to the first post you quoted?

 

Actually that's my quote.

Also, Republic, by 'that extremely' I meant kill/permanently disfigure/blind.

Breaking bones isn't terribly terrible by Shinobi standards.

Also, I'm pretty sure Gai and Lee would argue against that. Gai at least knows how to fight a Sharingan user without getting drawn into the crazy Genjutsu games it can play. I'd bet by now he's passed it on to Lee just in case he comes up against Sasuke. Also it's been fairly proven that whether or not you can predict a persons moves, and even learn them.. if you're not fast enough to react to them, the Sharingan ain't gonna help you.