Dear Rakkety Tam,

I will say this once in this thread, and once only. I don't feel the need to further derail this thread with the anger I feel towards you, so listen carefully.

You are a dickface.

Allow me to explain.

No, you didn't understand what I was saying.

You said this:

I replied that I read PJO not for the incest but for the interesting storyline; I tolerate, not enjoy, the cousin crap (which is heavily downplayed using that stupid "gods don't have DNA" excuse, but hey it's a kids book) and read PJO despite the incestuous overtones.

I started this thread to ask why some people specifically write incest and often specifically read/support it. I wasn't talking about cases like PJO, where fans read it in spite of the incest, not because of it. What you've done in comparing Harry/Lily to PJO is analogous to the apples/oranges argument, dude. Two different things, dweebus.

I doubt you've even read PJO, anyway.

PJO was based around Greek mythology, which is its source of incestuous overtones. And if you've paid any attention to my previous post, I acknowledged that incest has featured in the stories of the past, especially mythology. What I was saying is that incest had been considered as commonplace in the past, and increasingly throughout history, it has gained a tinge of taboo, at least when it doesn't consider gods (who transcend the boundaries of humanity, I guess). What we should consider as the societal norm shouldn't be the same as your idea of "Japanese manga" (I don't know what fucked up shit you read).

For example, incest increasingly became linked to witchcraft. An accusation of incest was one way of getting somebody ousted. Boleyn, anyone?

I'll reiterate my previous argument for you, Rakkety Dipshit, since you obviously couldn't deign to read anything longer than two paragraphs. Just because something was prosaic or the norm in the past doesn't necessarily mean that it is and should be commonplace in modern times. Most stories of incest which paint it in a non-negative light originate from early eras; people change, and societies change.

Believe it or not, incest was probably once inevitable, since all available sexual partners were probably related to you. But now, I really think that the human gene pool has diversified enough that you can seek out sexual partners who aren't your parents or siblings. Sure, the line begins to blur when we start discussing cousins and second-cousins, but let's try to leave the direct relatives (mother, father, grandparents, siblings) alone, kay?

Maybe you couldn't comprehend my thesis, but hey, I suppose bonking your mother has cost you a few brain cells. Your reply made me rage, because I think you didn't really consider what I was saying.

The "shit excuse" was Riordan's concoction, not mine. I myself have no reason for reading PJO and its Greek mythology-incest, except that I like the adventure storyline. I did not seek PJO out because I wanted incest, as you were implying. My point was that why do some people specifically feel the need to write incest or seek out stories deliberately for the incest. Did you not get that?

Anyway, I better let you go back to your manga. I can't keep you away from your wank material, right? Have a very nice day.

Yours sincerely,

Solaceon.

P.S. You're a creepy stalker. Really? Tracking down my post history to see if I like PJO? Very classy.


Now that I've gotten that rant off my chest, to the main topic: I get what you guys are saying. Some of you argue that Harry/Lily is alluring because Lily is an idealised mother figure, and you project yourself into Harry. Others say that it's because "Lily is a MILF".

I get that the internet is a screwy place; I knew that ever since somebody wrote a Gardevoir/Rapidash fanfic and posted it on SPP. Oh, the horror. What I want to know now, I guess, is why do the same people who support Harry/Lily rage at Malfoy-cest? Is it because it's not "hot" anymore because it might involve guy/guy? Or because Malfoy-cest potentially reveals that the incest situation is fucked up?

I respect that everybody has their own wand polishers; I guess now I'm just being morbidly curious to the mental reasoning which must accompany some of the rationalising prior to Harry/Lily. Psychoanalysis, lol.

 

I don't think anybody rationalizes it, really. Those who enjoy it probably accept that it's at least slightly fucked up, more or less depending on your perspective on/of/via Harry.

 

I'm almost positive that isn't the question that you asked. I've PM'd for clarification. I thought you were talking about how you were surprised at how popular incest was which is why I tried to list popular stories with incest in them to show that you probably shouldn't be surprised because it has always been a popular topic.

 

... someone really should write a Solaceon / Rakkety Tam slash fic.


On topic: The whole thread proves that there isn't one matching explanation for the phenomena. Arguing about it with tl;dr walls of text is just as twisted as the topic itself.

Freud would have blamed the Uber Ego, Rorschach would made you stare at his blots trying to find a pattern, and Walter Freeman would have chopped off parts of your brain to cure you.

For Legion however it was as simple as that: Siblings with benefits.

 

It is actually not that uncommon in the anime/manga scene.

I mean, that's the whole idea of "loli" type characters. So many anime/manga these days either have a character, or hell, a whole series FULL of characters who are young, or animated to look young, and pushed to older males as an ecchi/moe* anime.

The obsessive cult following that becomes almost mainstream amongst Japanese anime-fans almost scary.

Some examples from this season alone are:

Yuri Yuri - Pretty much a fan-service shoujo-ai (lesbian) anime of young loli's.
Ro Kyu Buu - Another fan-service anime made up of loli's playing sports. It is not, however a shounen sports anime. With screenshots like this, there's no way you can really argue otherwise.

Those are the two blatant ones whose sole purpose is to be loli fanservice, but there's probably heaps more that feature it as a plus point and even more that have loli characters in them - from this season alone.

This kinda stuff is fairly standard among Japanese anime audiences. You go to Comiket, and you'll see erotic doujinshi of these characters EVERYWHERE.

I really don't have much of a revulsion for it as I should, but then, I also make a clear distinction between anime and real life. Not that I particularly enjoy it either - but then, I hate most ecchi/moe anime.

Not everyone does though. There's a news blog I read that often has some semi-interesting anime-related stuff called Sankaku Complex (which pretty much tries to bring the Japanese 2ch culture to English speakers), which seems to be filled with people who don't make that distinction. I swear, sometimes I think I should be worried that one day I'll have police knocking on my door. There's a bunch of stories that get put up like "Japanese businessman arrested for paying to have sex with 13 year old". The responses on that site are generally along the lines of "WIN!", "Omg, fucking cops. The girl consented. Why is he going to jail?" "I want to go to Japan now..."

I guess in the Japanese otaku scene, this kinda stuff is so popular in the media, unlike Lolita, it pushes it as a positive thing. And then eventually, a lot of those people turn it into something positive for themselves - and then try to apply that to real life.

Same thing applies with incest in anime/manga, where the 'imouto' has become yet another standard moe character stereotype. Most anime won't actually have the brother/sister pairing, but the sister will be put in the usual erotic positions, with every line starting with "Onii-chan (brother)!" with the intention that the watcher imagines them as a little sister.

*For those that don't know the term. Moe is a term that refers to the attraction or preference to a type of character 'style'. Originally, you'd see cliches in female characters appearing in various anime and people would classify them into groups - eg, tsundere, kuudere, dandere, imouto, etc.

Recently, you have many (too many) anime that see those stereotypes as the goal and viola, you get the same boring characters appearing in anime after anime for fanservice, and becoming ridiculously popular.

 

Wut?

@Jarik: Honestly, I'd rather be caught at work watching porn than reading Sankaku Complex. Fucking absurd website.

 

This was never about discussing a reason why incest is popular, (if it was the OP is dumber than I thought), basically some guy saw something online that creeped him out, both the material and the volume of it and needed people to validate his dislike.

His rage was amusing though.

So you do read, just where you can't be caught huh? :awesome

 

So, after reading this post that has been shot down by pretty much everyone, I thought it was quite weird I've never seen any HP/LLP pairing.

After a little bit of research I found this. And well, I think it's actually a decent work, so, I let you judge.

About incest IRL: as long as the people involved are consenting (not sure about the word), that there's no pregnancy, and that they don't yell it to the world, I just don't care: I really don't want to know what happens in others people's bedroom anyway.

About incest in stories: as long as it's well written, I suppose I'll appreciate it. Like other people said before, when I read HPfanfiction, I imagine I'm in Harry's place, and I most definitely do not imagine my mother when it's Harry/Lily pairing but hot Lily.

 

To bring it back a bit, I'll try and answer this. Just to make it clear, when it comes to Harry/Lily, I'll read it if it's good, though I don't go looking for it. Like (I think) most people in this thread it's more a case of Harry/attractivefemale and too much focus on the incestuous aspect of the relationship would probably not endear the story to me.

As for Malfoy-cest, assuming Draco/Lucius rather than Draco/Narcissa (which I suppose I might read if it was good), I wouldn't say I find the idea absolutely disgusting, any more than say Draco/Snape. Which is to say I don't actually find homosexuality disgusting at all, it's the characters and how the fanfics are written. I almost entirely avoid slash fanfics, mainly because of how terribly written they usually are, though admittedly there are plenty of very good slash fanfics that I haven't read. Call it projecting myself onto the male lead if you want (and I suppose I would call it that too) but it's not how I like to spend my fanfic-reading time.

It might help to draw a distinction between cousin-cest and sibling/parent-cest as well, since, as some people have touched, on cousin-cest was pretty widespread especially in rural areas until relatively recently (last few centuries - less for less developed countries) due to people living in small, relatively isolated communities. It's also not illegal in most (nearly all?) countries.

I think the 'squick-factor' for cousin-cest it something that developed relatively recently too, and it's not actually something that I have at all (disclaimer: I have never had sex with any of my cousins - whether that is just because all the ones close to my age are male or not you will have to decide for yourself ). When it comes to closer relationships than that I admit to having a culturally ingrained dislike for the idea (I'm about as certain as I can be that it's not a natural instinct) at least in real life - fiction is a little different.

Taking the detached view though, there's really no logical reason why two consenting adult siblings (or a parent and adult offspring) shouldn't have a sexual relationship and even (with the assistance of genetic screening - assuming my vague idea of what current science can do matches with what it actually can do) produce children together.

 

In the spirit of the old Ginny Kill Offs I think what this thread is saying (but not in so many words) is that DLP should host an annual Harry/Lily writing contest. By doing this we can truly figure out what drives this taboo!

That's how my deranged mind saw it :|

 

Deranged? It would be for research purposes, of course. >_>

 

I will say this once in this thread, and once only:

You are a dickface.

(Evil Monkey agrees.)
​

 

Wow, so much pointless rage within this thread.

...Popcorn?

 

I can't believe how difficult it seems to be for some people to hold a civilized conversation about motherfucking.

Honestly.

 

Don't be hatin' on my brilliant idea. It can't be any worse than the Thank God You Raped Me Hermione rape off D8

As this intelligent Puerto Rican fellow in my history class once said about incest; "if the bitch be good lookin', she good lookin', ya know?" Sound logic.

To add my two cents (serious this time). Mommy incest irl is gross. I'd probably have a problem with it in a published book. However, I have no problem with it in fanfiction (Harry/Lily <3)

:awesome

 

I feel so dirty now.

 

No no, noooo n-n-no no. Mother-fucking isn't necessarily incest, 'cause I'm definitely a Mother-Lover.

 

Hm.

Before the onslaught of "You!"/"No, You!", tl;dr posts, someone mentioned the possibility of an incest story where Harry grows up with a sister, and over the years they develop a strong relationship stemming off their mutual hardship.

I wonder, are there any fics like that? It seems like quite an original idea, and I've never had a problem with brother/sister incest, myself. (This is probably because I'm an only child. Harry/Lily squicks me to no end except, maaaaybe when it's time-travel in the vein of Shezza's ancient Harry/Lily fic, anyone remember that?)

Starting the fic at year 1 would be a disaster, of course. But years 4, 5 or 6 could work, with some expository flashbacks to round things out.

 

I just want to add one thing to this thread, and then I'm out.

THE GODDAMN OEDIPUS COMPLEX IS NOT SEXUAL.

So stop talking about it like it is.

What's next? That we don't use 90% of our brains?

A handful of Freud's ideas have survived until now relatively intact, such as the id, ego and super-ego model. But most of them have fallen away under the light of evidence, or had to change and adapt to new knowledge. The Oedipus Complex is one of these. Barring extraneous factors, a boy raised with his mother will not view her as a sexual object due to the Westermarck Effect. This is a reverse sexual imprinting that we all go through when we are around others during our formative years. It's why you don't find your sister hot, and want to bone her.

Excepting certain forum goers...

The Oedipus Complex is used as a metaphor for child-parent conflict, particularly during adolescence, when people mature sexually and begin to construct more rigid personal boundaries.

Anyway, the reason Freud thought that all men want to bone their mothers was that he did. This likely stems from his upper class upbringing. To put it simply, Freud had wet nurses to feed him as an infant and was raised by nannies, meaning that he had little contact with his mother during aforesaid formative years. So the Westermarck Effect did not take root as effectively as it would in the 'wild.' And like most people, Freud projected how his brain worked onto everyone else, and so thought that everyone must want to bone their mothers like he did, only they repressed it.

He also thought that a lot of problems women had stemmed from their envy of the penis they could never have.:awesome

Keep in mind that Freud was basically the first person making serious inroads into human psychology, and expected to be proven wrong by future generations. He just thought that Psychology needed someone to confidently make assertions so that future Psychologists had somewhere to start.

And then he went retard, became dogmatic, and the cultish adherence to him that we have today took root.

The whole Oedipus Complex as motherboning has survived into modern contexts through literary criticism, where every tree is a magestic Penis, and every cave a daunting Vagina

Also, yes, Lily is an idealized MILF.