I would not say the theory is defunct. I mean Madara apparently awakened the rinnegan after his fight against Hashirama, and Tobi claimed that the whole point of that fight was to get access to Hashiramas dna and powers. So assuming thats all true, its actually a rather strong indication that in order for an Uchiha to get rinnegan, they need the "help" of the other side. Which does make sense since the original Rikudou was the one that had the rinnegan, and his powers basically split in two in his two sons(the older brother does not have the rinnegan for example, he has the bizarre swirlygan). So I would say the theory that Sharingan can turn into Rinnegan only with the help of the younger brothers bloodline is still alive and well. Ofcourse it could be that only Uchiha can achieve it, but in theory it could also work the other way around, if a Senju/Uzumaki got powerfull sharingan eyes.

It does seem that in many ways both the Senju and Uzumaki both look pretty pathetic compared to the Uchiha and the sharingan don't they? I mean one gets a super hax-eyes. And the Senju/Uzumaki get, a bit longer lifespan and somewhat stronger body or something? I suppose you could argue that being able to host the toxic chakra of the Kyuubi is an Uzumaki power (since all of Kyuubis hosts have been Uzumakis), making Narutos Kyuubi powers a bit more palatable (if he is the only one who could possess them). But still with Sasuke getting EMS and now possibly rinnegan eventually, you are right and it would be nice if Naruto demonstrated something interesting from the younger brothers line.

 

I looked up Tobi's and Madara's Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. They are the same. So that'll probably mean Tobi is indeed Madara, somehow. If he isn't, then Tobi must have gotten hold of Madara's eyes. But I don't really see how that would have given him the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, but not the Rinnegan.

 

Pretty harsh Naruto bashing Sechrima, considering he can do things on his own. Rasengan to Raikage elbow? No kyuubi chakra. By your analysis, everyone is pathetic. All Uchiha rely on Sharingan, Nagato relied on the Rinnegan, blah blah blah.

The Uzumaki had their sealing techniques - I assume, since Hiraishin and Naruto's seal are based off of theirs, that they were pretty badass.

And Nagato's memories of his parent's death could be genjutsu. We really don't know, considering the shit that's been thrown at us so far.

Oh, and thumbs up on the Hitler video. Hilarious.

EDIT: Despite all this, the biggest mystery, to me, remains how Minato became so fast.

EDIT 2: Lol, "Goku with short hair." I bet Itachi stops the resurrection jutsu before the shit hits the fan.

EDIT 3: How in the fuck is Sarutobi one of the top dead dudes?

 

When Tobi did use EMS?

 

@ Cxjenious : Well, he DID fight the Shodai and Nidaime while they were invincible at the same time and even had the upper hand at times. From what we have seen, Madara and Shodai were pretty much equals and Madara is right now dominating the field, although I guess he didn't have the Rinnegan back then.

Also, the fact that Sarutobi was known as the strongest ninja in his era and that era included all the revived kages we have seen.

I know it's disappointing that we didn't see him smack armies around, which casts great doubt to his strength but I don't have any doubt that he could have done it. He probably recognized Edo Tensai as a recurring plot jutsu and decided to seal his soul away so he wouldn't take part in this joke of a war.:awesome

Rather die and battle the god of death for eternity than getting friendship speech-ed.

I mean, you have the 2nd Mizukage, the 2nd and 3rd Tsuchikage and even someone like the 3rd Raikage who apparently could only be defeated by ten thousand men in three days (still not buying it, by the way) and it was still the Sandaime who got the title "God of the Shinobi". Not the guy who was apparently pretty much invincible but Sarutobi.

At least my take on this.

 

The Sandaime is a badass because if the Shodai and Nidaime weren't undead regenerating shinobi, he'd have killed them rather quickly with those seal tags, then owned Orochimaru, and then killed the Sound Four in short order.

Orochimaru using unkillable shinobi wore down the Sandaime enough for it to mean something, and even then the Sandaime nearly won.

And that was in an enclosed environment, with no prep, no awareness of who his opponent would be, using as few jutsu as possible...

Sarutobi in his youth must have been a real monster.

 

No just No

Only one person called him that and that person was mocking him for getting weak.

 

And that means it wasn't a real title why exactly?

 

Tobi has never been shown with any form of Sharingan beyond the basic one.

At this point it's clear that the Edo Tensei zombies that Sarutobi fought were not on the level of the ones we're seeing in action in this war. It's been stated multiple times by Kabuto that he's using an advanced version of the Edo Tensei, so arguing against this seems silly. Besides, the fights themselves are telling.

And Sarutobi did know exactly who he'd be fighting... he was fully aware of the imminent invasion which is why Konoha face-rolled both Sand and Sound. It's also why he prepped the Death God seal.

To me Sarutobi showed he was more of a tactical genius than a monster ninja in his fight, but he still did perform incredibly well given the circumstances, and going into the fight knowing almost certainly he was going to die.

 

Because say what you will bout Kishi but when he gives a character a title he tends to stay consistent by having other characters hype that title. Something he did for Minato, Shodai, and a few others but not Old man Sanaime.

 

Touche, I'd forgotten Kabuto had made that mention. Probably because I don't like it.

He wasn't aware it was going to be Orochimaru. From his point of view, he was in the box-seat with the Kazekage, Mr. Gold Dust himself. Which explains why Jiriaya was in the village proper, no doubt expecting Orochimaru to lead the frontal assault, me thinks.

Sandaime hasn't been relevant for hundreds of chapters now. Minato actually has.

 

With all these old era Kages out and about you would think his name would of slipped out of someone's mouth by now. The Old Man was head and shoulders above his peers but he wasn't no God.

 

Naruto has a few nice tricks up his sleeve which he earned with hard work and his own brand of genius. The Rasengan is a great jutsu, except he can't do it out of Sage Mode without the assistance of a goddamn Kage Bunshin. Sage Mode itself is in my opinion his greatest accomplishment and puts him on the level of an S-class nin. The Rasenshuriken is a nasty finisher and very strong, and definitely his best offensive technique. So I do give credit where it's due.

But here's the problem with Naruto as I see it. Firstly, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed, so I doubt he could ever learn, let alone master, his clan's specialty, fuuinjutsu. Then again, I'm pretty sure Jiraiya was the dead-last of his generation and he somehow became a fuuinjutsu master, so who knows? Maybe it's more intuitive than intellectual and he'd be good at it. Regardless, as it stands Naruto can't do jack with fuuinjutsu. So he's got no Uzumaki skills to speak of.

Secondly, he learned wind nature transformation but can't really use it for anything but the Rasenshuriken, which drains chakra like a bitch and is generally overkill. He needs more wind techniques, especially a few long-range jutsus, because right now he can't hit anyone at more than melee range, and the Rasenshuriken messes him up when he does use it. Sasuke has three elements (fire, lightning, and blaze) and a bunch of jutsus for each one. Blaze is even an advanced bloodline limit, putting him heads and shoulders above Naruto in elemental ninjutsu.

Thirdly, those Uchiha eyes just keep getting better while all Naruto has is a long lifespan (which didn't help the Uzumaki clan much when they got exterminated) and a robust body. Yes, maybe that allows him to host the Kyuubi when no one else can, but I doubt it, since all the other bijuu didn't need Uzumaki hosts. The Senju/Uzumaki desperately need a power-up if they're to even barely contend with the power of the Uchiha.

I don't think the Uchiha relying on the Sharingan makes them pathetic. They're born that way. It's a genetic part of them and their identity. The Kyuubi, however, is a completely separate entity to Naruto. He wasn't born with it. It's not a part of him. And yet, without its chakra, he wouldn't have survived his encounters with Haku, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Pain, etc.

It's a weapon, yes, but Naruto is apparently so reliant on it that he couldn't fight his way out of a sack without it.

This bothers me because the Senju/Uzumaki are supposed to be equals of the Uchiha. Using the gifts endowed on them by the Rikudou Sennin through his younger son, they should be able to contend with the Uchiha at the same level. Now, if all Senju and Uzumaki could potentially learn Mokuton or similar high-level elemental natures, I'd be somewhat mollified. But apparently they can't. They just live a little longer and have good endurance. Pffft.

 

Well, Senju (and Uzumaki ?) ancestor inherited powerful will from Rikudou Sennin too. When I first read it, the first thought was that it will manifest like power from Planescape: Torment. Power to "unmake" enemies or power to make beliefs or dreams real.

On the other hand, this seems like Yin-Yang Release and chakra of Rikudou Sennin was inherited by Uchiha ancestor...

 

The Senju ancestor inherited the sage's physical energy, his 'body'.

The Uchiha ancestor inherited the sage's spiritual energy, his 'eyes'.

Also, lets not forget that it was Hashirama that beat Madara, not the other way around. And I'd say he'd have to be pretty badass if he managed to do that when two kage and Naruto both have no clue what to do against him.

And it took Kakashi, Yamato, Shikamaru, Ino, Choji and Naruto to beat Kakuzu. The shodai fought against him by himself. Again, that implies he's pretty badass.

The Senju would have all been incredibly strong and fast, similar to Gai, for example, but not on the same level of strength as Tsunade. Tsunade has extreme physical abilities, and her chakra control augments that.

... Naruto just proved that he's the fastest shinobi on the planet, his clone wtfpwned two unkillable kage, and you think that, say, Sasuke can easily beat him without trying? Kishimoto is an idiot, and is periodically giving insane power-ups to Naruto and Sasuke before he realizes that he has made the other too powerful and tries to make up for it by repeating the process with the other of the two. And, quite frankly, Madara is on another level to Sasuke to the point where he can barely distinguish between their level, and Konohamaru's level. It's a huge gap, but practically insignificant to Madara.

Naruto has two kage helping him fight, along with about 5-10 thousand or so other shinobi. It will take all of them to seal Madara.

 

Naruto's not all that strong, he's just better at leeching off the Kyuubi than he's ever been.

 

Rasengan is cool enough, but it was basically taught to him by Jiraiya in a very basic and simple three step program. And even then, he STILL has not actually learned to do it right(not even in the 3 year timeskip!). He first needs to create a clone, and then have the clone slowly help him create it. Compare that to Minato/Jiraiya and suddenly Narutos rasengan is not looking so great

Rasenshuriken was pretty good invention, and it was atleast partially Narutos so thats something atleast. As for Sage Mode, thats cool too, and I do like that he has learned it better than Jiraiya did. I have long suspected that Kishi realised that he had screwed Naruto up during the timeskip and made him far too weak, and the SM mastery was to fix that and bring Naruto to the level required to face serious enemies.

I think Naruto learning fuuinjutsu could have been made realistic. Naruto does occasionally show surprising intellect in some areas, and he was proven to be willing to work hard so I would have accepted it if Naruto had learned fuuinjutsu. Unfortunately, I think its way too late now. Naruto should have returned from the timeskip with Jiraiya (who is a sealing master) proficient in fuuinjutsu, and we should have seen him improve since then. Having him start studying it from scratch now would be absurd. And if he suddenly demonstrates great skill at the field, it will be a massive asspull.

Yeah. This is really annoying actually. Naruto does not use his wind nature at ALL. He does not use weapons and enhance them with wind chakra like Asuma did. And he has not demonstrated a single wind technique that I can recall, other than FRS. And while FRS is cool and all, it has serious flaws in it. Why the heck has no one taught anything to Naruto? I mean he learned Kage Bunshin in a few hours, would it really be that hard for Kakashi who supposedly knows 1000 techniques, to teach one fuuton trick to Naruto. Even a basic one!

Yeah. In the shinobi world, long lifespan won't be all that usefull if you get horribly butchered by your enemies. Infact given how powerfull the sharingan is, it would make a lot of sense if the Uchiha actually used to have a higher average lifespan simply because the sharingan would have helped them stay alive longer in battle. As for the bijuu, the Kyuubi is a bit special I guess. I mean Naruto only has 50%, and even then it seems to be a lot more powerfull than Hachibi. So maybe no one but Uzumaki could contain Kyuubi properly. But even then, thats a pretty pathetic power-up compared to sharingan->MS->EMS->Rinnegan(maybe).

Yeah. I wish Naruto had some tricks purely of his own. Most people do. Minato invented his teleport-move from scratch basically. Jiraiya had many cool techniques and the like. Naruto though is basically Kyuubi+Variants of his fathers technique that he inherited.

Agreed. Hashirama was the only one with Mokuton. And we have never seen/heard any other unique feats from any other Senju/Uzumaki. Heck, we recently learned in the manga that the previous Raikage (who obviously could not have been a Senju) apparently had a body endurance far greater than any Senju/Uzumaki, so really they don't even have that!

He was also completely unique among the Senju with his mokuton ability, while virtually EVERY Uchiha gained the super-eyes. Secondly, his victory against Madara was flawed since not only did Madara survive and fool Hashirama into believing he won. But he also managed to steal dna/something from Hashirama that he used to strengten himself (and possibly awaken the rinnegan if that theory is true). So did Hashirama really beat Madara in the end?

Have we ever seen that? Or any suggestion of that even? Neither of the edo!Hokages who were Senju seemed all that physically superiour. And it has been made clear that Tsunade super-strength has nothing to do with her body, especially since Sakura was able to learn that technique.

Sure, Naruto is likely fastest person alive. But why is he fast? Is he fast because he was born with the body of the sage and inherited his extreme speed from his Uzumaki-mother? Or is he super-fast because he is tapping into the chakra of the Kyuubi, which has nothing at all do with him personally. We both know the answer to that. Infact right now in the manga, it seems like all the powerfull abilities Naruto is using to beat kages with his clones, come not from Naruto himself, but from the strength he stole from Kyuubi. That kinda sucks when in the case of random Uchiha/Sasuke case he was born with the Sharingan.

Which only confirms further that the power-level is completely unbalanced to the Uchiha, with Senju/Uzumaki inheriting the scraps.

 

I think that's the whole point, though.

The Uchiha with their Sharingan, MS, EMS and possible Rinnegan mutation are the ones who inherited the sage's ocular powers. But the Uchiha ancestor was not the one who 'inherited' the sage's will and vision. Obviously, father and son didn't see eye to eye there (Tobi implied as much when he was talking to Naruto, Kakashi and Yamato). Possibly, the Uchiha ancestor was just as power hungry as his descendants are proving to be.

This I think is the reason for the Senju/Uzumaki line inheriting the sage's will and, I suppose, his hopes and dreams. No special powers, no cool bloodline abilities, nothing. Just a strong will and the determination to keep going; to use whatever tools they have and get things done.

Naruto perfectly embodies this. No super-genius brain, no super/special abilities and nothing in the bloodline either. Just your average Joe, dealt a hard hand in life - but still goes about doing his job without complaint.

Does it make for satisfying reading? Not so much. Its more frustrating really, to see such a main character because personally, what I want is a hero who crushes the villain in a blaze of glory, not the kid-next-door. But the characterization is certainly consistent with the theme of the story which is that one can succeed without being a super-genius and without having any cool/powerful bloodline inheritance, as long as one had the guts and determination to duke it out, put in the hard work.

 

So basically Naruto is just like Harry Potter. He relies on luck and the strength of others to get shit done. There's something very wrong with the modern generation of heroes, in that case.

 

Are we ignoring the fact that Naruto's a jinchuuriki now?