Why exactly is Udyr a god-tier jungler? He does have great sustain, and bear mode can win teamfights, but when compared to Skarner's spamable q or Lee Sin's absurd mobility, he seems second class.

 

You're right, Udyr is second class. He doesn't have as much sustain as Warwick, doesn't have as much mobility as Lee Sin, doesn't have as much CC as Amumu and doesn't gank as well as Rammus. He's absolutely second class if you compare him to the masters.

Those junglers all have weaknesses though. Warwick has better sustain, but can't gank effectively without his ult. Lee Sin has better mobility, but lacks CC. Amumu has better CC but lacks sustain and is completely reliant on blue buff. Rammus has better ganks but his clear speed drops quickly and he falls behind without kills.

Udyr is second class at everything, yes, but he's second class at everything. He's well sustained with Turtle Stance, has good mobility and CC in Bear Stance, can AoE clear quickly if he goes Phoenix Stance and can pump out crazy single target DPS if he goes Tiger Stance. He's a very versatile jungler with no real weaknesses and a strong early game that still turns into an unstoppable, immortal, carry-destroying, late game god who can get jumped 1v3 and still walk away with a kill.


tl;dr: Good at everything, no weaknesses, pretty cool guy, kills carries and doesnt afraid of anything.

 

Anybody watching IEM Hannover? Good stuff, apparently Janna es #1 support.

 

I've watched a couple games, because professional gaming interests me. They crazy shit that goes down at that level is ridiculously entertaining. (plus it helps me understand my own limited abilities, and where to improve)

 

And, you know, can't teleport.

Edit: On Udyr: A farmed and/or fed Udyr is like a fed/farmed Trynd in terms of raw damage output, but he can stun your ass instead of slow, and is much tankier than Trynd. The only thing he does worse is in the Ult department. And that's only because Udyr has no true ult.

In return for this, however, each of his other abilities is stronger. Udyr is a very generalist jungler. And the one I'd recommend for anyone just starting to jungle, until you learn your jungling style and can then pick a jungler more in line with your tactics.

 

You know what the coolest thing is in a teamfight, especially when chasing? I was playing Ap Zilean mid, and during a team fight speed up Udyr so that he stuns while you place bombs on everything. I'm not saying it's op or anything, but it is the coolest thing to watch, especially when there's a Shurelyas on the team too.

And the thing with Soraka, it makes me want to try it out Although, I have a question, how do you use your Q's without pushing your lane? I always feel as though that's the number one problem with Soraka laning is with a pushed lane, it's easy to get ganked (Yes, I know about wards, but it's not terribly unusual for junglers to carry oracles early on now or try to walk around). In such a situation, wouldn't it be better to max out E first? Longer silence, don't have to worry about running out of mana since it doesn't cost any, and while in longer fights Starcall is better for damage, Infuse scales better for single pokes etc.

 

AP soraka is a gimmick and really nothing more.
530 radius on starcall means every AD carry can outrange your starcall.
You can't farm without pushing your lane, you can't damage without being in melee, and you can't cc or burst. Morde gets rylais too, but no one picks him for his cc.

Sure it can work, especially vs people who don't know how to handle it, but unless you get someone going full retard vs you, you won't be carrying any game. Even 5-0, the 3-1 bot lane will still be better. If the mid really has trouble because they picked someone like gragas or kassadin, they can just swap in the ranged carry and problem solved.

It's making a hard counterpick to an AP caster in exchange for being just as useless if not more so in the late game.

 

For anyone trying Soraka mid, do note that I specify that I'm trolling with it.

And despite how much Churchey rags on AP Soraka mid, it does work in coordinated play and isn't as bad as he's making it out to be.

Boots + speed quints + masteries lets you outspeed most mids that aren't running similar sets. Using E to engage then Q tapping 1-2 times lets you safely weave in and out of harass while your 65 MRes from passive + Masteries + Runes lets you soak up any damage you might take. Proper ward placement, critical to evading ganks on an escape-less champion, and map awareness along with Heal + W + Ulti means you survive most ganks easily, if they can gank you in the first place.

Again, the point of mid Soraka isn't to carry. The primary goal is to shut down the enemy mid. Secondary goal is to harass hard enough (at low costs at that) while taking little reflected damage to make tower dive ganking your lane ridiculously easy for your jungler, further shutting down the enemy mid and stopping them from ganking.

AP Soraka also isn't useless late-game. She has more survivability, heals more, heals more often, and can inflict combat damage, and shred enemy MRes like a boss while providing an AOE slow.


Reason I got 4 wins with Soraka mid? My jungler was amazing on the ganks. I called for a gank multiple times, not because I was losing, but because I harassed the enemy down quickly and effectively enough for a safe tower dive, if it ever came to dives.

See, this is one of those anti-meta things. Kill lane on bot, a mid that can abuse enemy APs, and whatever top. It works when your team works with you, but falls apart epically when everyone's dancing to their own beat.

Your team has to be on the ball for this kind of stuff to work. Don't go picking blind and expect to roll people if your allies don't work with you.

 

AP Soraka works if you have a coordinated team and a jungler who is on the ball. Reaaaaaally now? A coordinated team can win games? I'm shocked.

Put any other AP mid with a coordinated team and a jungler who is on the ball and they will do better. I can play --anyrandomcharacterhere-- in a troll build and win with a coordinated team, that doesn't mean its good.

I'm sure it works when your team works with you...if the enemy team is dancing to their own beat. It doesn't matter if you are 50 cs ahead of your opponent with a kill or two as AP soraka, the enemy mid will be just as useful as you when it comes to teamfights and the game will be decided by your respective teams, just because actual mages have utility in their kits, whereas Soraka has her heals that aren't particularly powerful, even with a ton of AP (nearly every aoe Ult has higher AP ratios and base damage than her heal).

Gragas? Ult decides fight.
Annie? Well placed Tibbers stun wins fight.
Karthus? Ult wins game.
Ahri? Goes ganking at 6, wins other lanes for her allies.
Kass? Same.
Anivia? Probably still wins lane, dominates late game.
Brand? A well placed combo wins game.
Etc etc etc.

Scyx17, that transvestite (alleged, I don't even know) who advertised his stream as "#1 GURL GAMER" until the forums found out he was a dude/trans, ran AP soraka mid for a long time and had a decent win rate on him. And yet, every game he lost was because of his team and every game he won was because of his team. He never carried or did anything useful beyond taking the enemy AP out of the game as a huge factor, and he couldn't even do that all that well. I'm sure youtube has some Doublelift replays (Scyx17 fancied itself as Doublelift's arch-nemesis or some shit) of him/her getting stomped as AP soraka even after shutting down the enemy mid very well.

It's a gimmick, and I think Doublelift even called Scy out on only being able to play gimmick builds.

 

What was jungle Eve again? AP Sion? AP TF? AP Annie? Oh right, they all started out as gimmick builds and then moved to be their best forms.

 

Um...what?
AP Sion and AP TF were the classic and only way to play the two, pretty much since beta. TF had two damaging spells, both of which scaled entirely off of AP and with very efficient ratios. After they gutted and remade him, the gimmick build was ASAD similar to ASPD Kennen. I even wrote a guide on it 2 years ago. It fell out of popularity when people realized that his AD build was fucking terrible.

AP Sion was a strong pick since beta as well. He only fell out of popularity when they changed his stun duration, removed flash popping, and introduced 60 new characters that are powercreeping their way over his relevance. Even still, AD sion is the 'gimmick' pick by far.

AP Annie....a gimmick build? Are you serious? Not sure if trolling or just stupid.

And yea, jungle eve is the best form of a gimmick pick.

Check your facts.

 

Not entirely sure why I'm defending a troll build here, but...

Soraka has no CC? She has a 2.5s silence on a ≈10s cooldown, letting her shut down enemy casters and harass without retaliation. She can't farm without pushing? Neither can Anivia, Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Morgana, Sion, Swain or Zilean, but it doesn't seem to be much of an issue for them. Starcall is outranged by AD? So is Defile, but you don't see Karthus players complaining because it's fucking irrelevant.

You're right that AP Soraka can't carry, but it doesn't matter because she isn't supposed to. Her role is to shut down the enemy mid lane early game with strong, safe, free harass from Infuse and then, like Nunu or Karma, transition into a powerful support for team fights. It lets you play someone like Blitzcrank or Poppy in bot lane without having to sacrifice sustain in prolonged sieges. You can even run someone like Gragas, Kennen, Morgana or Vladimir as your solo top to ensure you don't lose your AP damage either.

AP Soraka doesn't fit into every team comp and needs your team to work with you. Maybe that makes it a gimmick build, but when the exact same thing can be said about most of the champions in the game, you shouldn't completely dismiss it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there even another way to play Annie? You have to have the AP to boost your damage and CDR so you can throw your Tibbers stun more often.

 

I suppose that Annie could be played as similar to an AD Kennen build, since she has a rather long auto-attack range(625, with only a few champions having a longer range) and a stun on command(and with her Q, it is even a guaranteed hit in most cases). It's not something that I've personally seen played since I started, but I could imagine it being done.

 

God damn, I've been playing for a long time.

Guess I shouldn't be surprised no one remembers AD Annie, since everyone's used to the rebuffed Annie. Her original build supported her being AD since her AP set-up was average at best.

It was largely because of the items and effects she had available. 4-5s Stun duration on a low CD, the ability to stack 2 of those stuns together and AOE people, and a much longer cast range.

While AP would let her gib someone, AD scaled better and progressed into a beastly late-game carry when used well, but everyone had beastly effects back then, except for a few champs.

EDIT: To give some idea of how she was, think Sejuani and Graves hybrid. 4x Sejuani Ultis + Graves defense + Graves early game + Graves late-game auto attack damage.

EDIT2:

You must be forgetting the time where TF had zero AP ratio on his PaC and when his Q had a .5 ratio.

Or maybe you're forgetting when his PaC had a 3s CD, still zero AP ratio, and he could chain AOE them while Wild Card still had a .5 ratio.

Of course, there were times where AP TF were actually usable in between, such as when his Wild Cards got a massive spike to 1.0, but TF started off as an AD that got his AP gimmick buffed up and turned standard.

Though you are right about Sion. He did have rather impressive and retarded as fuck ratios during Alpha.

 

Except with no AD scaling at all. I've been playing since open beta and I don't remember this build as anything better or less trolltastic than crittlesticks or heimerflinger. Might've been that people didn't troll when they played with me. I find it hard to believe you know of some build because 'you've played longer than me' when you don't remember AP TF being the most overpowered thing ever introduced into the game that wasn't bug-related. Seriously, you calling AP TF a gimmick is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

But sure, point out this random obscurity where AP annie received massive buffs to her ap ratios and then say its because the gimmick was so good.
Also, then ignore all the other random bs you spouted about AP TF, Sion, and trolololol Eve.

A 2.5 second silence, amg, that's so fucking amazing! Wait, no it isn't, because it's single target and useless past the laning phase, which is where the fucking gimmick ends. You can silence their caster, grats, you have reached the extent of your usefulness. Now gragas splits your team up for kills and deals as much damage as your last 10 starfalls. Or anivia puts her ult vaguely near your AD carry, and their AD carry is now 40% better. Or Kassadin blinks in, silences your carry and deals some relevant burst damage. The silence pales so hard in comparison to the ccs that real mages can throw out its nonexistent. And those ganks gonna be real hard with that silence! Much better than Ahri charm or ryze snare for sure.

The difference between soraka and all of those casters that you mentioned (save morde, to some extent) is that soraka has to stand within AA range of the ranged minions while aoeing them down for 6+ seconds until later ranks, whereas every other "pushing" farmer can do it from range or with one spell cast.

Having to run into melee is irrelevant for soraka? Sorry, I missed the part where SHE COULD DEAL DAMAGE WHILE FUCKING DEAD. Because that's why defile is useful on Karthus in the teamfight phase. Not to mention, it isn't like defile is one of three damage spells for karthus. The other two? Yea just global range on one and a little shy of 1000 range on the other.

Or you could run a regular team comp and do it better, because Soraka won't shut down a Gragas, Kennen, Morgana, Morde, Malz, Karthus, Annie, Brand, Anivia, Cass, or Swain from farming enough to still be just as relevant late game. And running double AP solos is like asking for a buttfucking in the late game, especially when one is Soraka.

I completely dismiss gimmicks because they are gimmicks. You can shut down the mid lane early game or even entirely if you fight an idiot, but you become just as useless in the late game because you picked ap soraka. There is a difference between needing a team to work with you (ie Kogmaw needs more protection than other carries because he has no escape), needing an entire team based around you (ie old school twitch with kayle/zilean ults), and simply being a gimmick pick that excels in one specific part of the game and falls off quickly after whether they do well or not.

 

After laning ends and you've ruined the day of the AP you were laning against, you play as a traditional support. You stay towards the back lines and you support your carry, exactly like the traditional support Soraka. The difference is that because you were able to farm up Mercury's Treads, Rod of Ages and Zhonya's Hourglass instead of sitting in the brush with a Heart of Gold, Philosopher's Stone and rank 1 boots, you don't instantly melt whenever someone looks at you and your heal restores a noticeable amount of health.

You can't be serious? That's like saying you shouldn't ever pick Malphite because the enemy team might deal a lot of magic damage. It's almost as though when I said that Soraka doesn't work in all team comps, I was talking about enemy team comps too.

You might want to tell the pros that running double AP sucks, because they're doing it all the time. In fact they're doing it in Hanover right now. The semifinal between M5 and CLG earlier today had a Twisted Fate / Swain in the first game and a Vladimir / Kennen in the second.

Then you're wrong.

 

And you're still useless compared to a real team. You either ran a support bot and now your late game is double support (herpfuckingderpuseless) or your carry is underfarmed (herpfuckingderpuseless).

I'm sorry I thought that listing pretty much every single AP carry would convey that it isn't certain mages that can do well against Soraka, but ALL OF THEM. No one is hard countered by soraka except a hard melee with no means of ranged farm like Fizz/Kass who aren't terribly reliant on their farm in the first place.

In the BEST case scenario, you stop them from farming well and they don't have high burst, but still have 10x the cc Soraka can bring forth and comparable damage.

But yea, picking Soraka who can do well against some mages is the same as picking Malphite who hard counters every single ranged AD in existence.

Yea, double AP. And you know what they didn't have? SORAKA. Because double useful AP=/=AP+support herpderping and taking a lane from a real mage.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Moscow 5 is really fucking strong. It's annoying as fuck to see them sweep every North American team they come across like the Romans over the Germanic tribes.

I'm really, really hoping Dignitas stomps them.

 

Dude, it's like the 80's all over again. Wait until we get our Miracle On League team going, then we'll show those commie bastards how to play hockey! Uh, I mean... League. Yeah, I meant League.