The only time I play my best champions is when I play ranked. Other than that Ive played them so much that they are boring so I play others when I'm playing normal, which is like 95% of the time. Of course now I pretty much just random every time.

 

I've been playing mostly some sub-characters that I'm pretty good at. But not my best.

But then, my best is an AP Mid(Lux), and AP mid is the hardest to carry from, since you have to be protected by your team, and finding that kind of co-operation on a random team is hard.

Anyway, nah, I still play Lux pretty often, but that might be because I never get 10-game winning streaks with her.

 

Would argue that AP mid is the easiest lane to carry from, considering you can push/roam and kill the lower level botlane or enemy jungler. With a good ward placed in the enemy jungle, you could catch him unawares. You could also wander botlane and make something happen or even wander top. You have a lot of freedom in that lane.

 

You're talking early game, he's talking late game. Two very different scenarios.

 

The entire point of what I am talking about is to demoralize the enemy team and increase your strength so much early that the game is over during the mid-game. This is what AP carry is about. Randoms in solo queue are very quick to type in /surrender because of how "fed" the midlane got and how much he may have destroyed the bot lane, the jungler or even the enemy mid lane.

If you're constantly getting to late game by playing AP mid all the time, I would say that you're doing something wrong.

 

On the other hand, in ranked games people are loathe to surrender and lose Elo rating. I've played one or two with that dragged on long enough for me to finish my build and blow money on the 3 elixirs, turning the game around. I see your point though; whenever mid builds up a spree and survives a gank, teammates tend to say surrender at 20.

I just realized that I never go into the queue, pick something and lock in, even if I'm first to load.

 

I don't know about ranked games, I'm not high enough to play them yet, but in solo q I constantly get a no surrender herp derp team. No way in blue hell we could win, but they want to camp that one tower we have left for another 20 minutes just to piss off the other team. I always find it ironic that they cbf to use teamwork to TAKE the fucking towers, but they'll work together to hold onto that last inhib tower.

 

This.

Of course when a friend and I have gone together in the queue, we have refused to surrender when the rest of our team wanted to, and about 60% of the time we managed to scrape out a win due to Baron steal or a big Ace.

It helps that we tend to do AD Carry Support together, so our team is losing, but I manage to get farmed and turn it around late game.

But yeah, sometimes there is no chance at all of winning and not surrendering is prolonging the inevitable.

 

That being said, it's fun when an enemy team has an early strong lead, and ends up getting a bit... arrogant, perhaps, which leads to your team winning a few important team fights that turn the game around into a win. Whether it's because you get to push some towers, grab Baron, or something else.

 

Yeah, I've had annoying teams that refused to surrender despite it being an obvious lost cause. I've also had my share of teammates who were a bit too quick to give up, not to mention the occasional dumbass who wanted to surrender despite the fact that we were winning.

 

I hate complacency. The one thing Dominion has taught me above all else is that you need to keep the same level of play throughout the entire game.

All it takes is one screw-up to blow it all away at mid-late.

 

The problem is that I tend to play ap-mids that are strongest mid-game. Lux, for instance. Her early game is bad because her damage is low, her survivability worse, and her mobility nill.

Mid game, however, her damage ramps up and becomes a force to be reckoned with. She can finally farm without having to aa every minion or else blow both Q and E on it. Her ult is on a fairly low cooldown and she's got a hell of a lot of range.

But she's not Gragas, or Kassadin, or Vlad, etc etc. To be effective against a skilled team she requires both A. Perfect positoning and timing, and B, protection from the team that is going to focus the hell out of her.

Or Xerath. Early game? Bad. Mid game? Good. Late game? Excellent. But he has, if possible, even worse mobility and escape than Lux does, having to literally root himself in place to attain maximum damage potential and capability to inflict that damage. As well as requiring a flair and skill at positioning both pre and during battle that is even more difficult to deal with considering that damnable W of his.

The AP mids you're thinking of are the ones that can travel fairly safely on their own. Kennen, Vlad, Gragas, Kassadin, etc. They all have some combination of Mobility and/or CC and/or survivability that allow them to survive ganks and focusing easier than my favorite/best champs.

Take the #1 ranked AP Mid carry right now, Cassiopeia. She's got range, slows, AOE, spammable damge, zoning tools, damage over time, burst damage (snake fangs of deathhhhh) and one hell of an ult that almost guarantees her at least one kill if she can get it off right.

But even she is slow, squishy as all hell, and if her Ult is down has absolutely no form of hard CC or survivability. To be successful she requires one of two things. A good team that can protect her and work to maximize her advantages, or an enemy team with few brains and little teamwork. Because if her team isn't capable and/or willing to work WITH her, she becomes very easily focused down and useless.

AP Mid is great, but it's not like TankyDPS who can just laugh in the face of the enemy if fed enough, or AD carries with mobility + support who become like a killing wind (Vayne, Graves, Ezreal if fed) and basically drag a moderately bad 3 other teammates to victory if the game goes on long enough.

AP mids that are not mobile/survivable are among the most difficult to carry with because they have the highest requirements based on their team/enemy to succeed.

But you are correct, if you have a team that works with them and protects them (Riight, cause that's common in soloqueue), AP carries are a truely devastating force on the battlefield.

Unfortunately, recent patches have made that less so. The buff to Hexdrinker has made AD carries/TankyDPS much harder to burst down and kill midgame. And since the greatest power restraint of most AP carries is Cooldown time, that means the hexdrinker buff was a direct nerf to the capability of many AP carries to actually carry.

=.=

Do I need to go on?

P.S. Zeph, You're awesome man. But your stats on LoLKing.Net show you play mostly tanky or ad carries, Graves is your best, and when you do play AP mid you don't do terribly well.

Every AP carry you've played in your ranked matches has more deaths than kills. Please don't try to act like you know the position better than I do. You also play lots of support, that gets mad props. You're probably better at both AD Carries and Support than I am.

P.P.S. In 1204 (normal) games played I have most definitely had more teams that refuse to surrender than ones that surrender easily/early. Maybe you're lucky, or the elo you're at is different. But I can introduce you to a hell of a lot of players who would virulently disagree with you about teams surrendering easy/early frequently.

 

You're right. Both champions you've listed here are not very mobile. They can still annoy the hell out of the enemy jungler but ganking the sidelines is more difficult with both Lux and Xerath. It is possible but it usually requires blue buff or to be against a mid that can't seem to push against you very well.

Lux shines mid game. This is probably around levels 11-14. Try getting in the ganks then. Xerath is definitely late game. It is why you rarely see the champion because he DOES require teamfights to breakout and work well in his favor.

Cassio's biggest strength lies in her laning phase. It is a pain in the ass to beat her in a duel mid (if you encounter one that is even halfway average). You do not see her much outside premade 5s, however, because you are right. She is not a solo queue champion. You can beat the crap out of the enemy mid laner and maybe the jungler, but her ability to gank the sidelines comes from shoving her lane and walking somewhere.

Solo top is one of the hardest lanes to carry from. Sure you can get big, tanky, and annoying as all hell but your presence in the first 20-25 minutes of the game is usually low (Unless you have a global ultimate like Shen or GP). Your other four teammates can easily spiral the game out of control before you even get to have your gold matter in the fights.

AD Carries are a whole different matter. I think this lane arguably requires a duo queue AD/Support to actually carry the game here. Usually in solo queue you get one or the other that is not very skilled at the position and then end up having poor teamwork to have a decent laning phase.

Supports have the highest requirement of his/her team to succeed. Their job is to help them succeed and sometimes not all the help in the world can accomplish this.

I admit. AP Carry is my weakest role. If I end up playing an AP champion, it will be those that can solo top like Vlad, Kennen, Rumble or even Malazhar. I am not sure what LoLKing.net was but it looks like it only records ranked stats. I mostly play normals and I most definitely specialize in supports and ranged ads. Basically bot lane. You will find me on champions like Lulu, Janna, Sona, Alistar, Graves, MF, Ezreal, Corki etc. more so than a role you are probably better than I am (AP Mid)

My experience is that when I solo queue (solo normals anyways), if my team is not doing very well then a surrender vote will happen like every 5 minutes or so. I mean here is that we're down say 8-9 kills and 2-3 towers. It is still possible to win but it will be difficult.

In my experience with larger premades (3+ players), is that there's always someone who wants to surrender. Sometimes we hold out and those games we usually come back from. Othertimes its a simple surrender at 20.

I guess my point is that for solo queue as an AP carry, you may actually be forced to play those AP mids that can gank bot/top easily or ambush their jungler. Champions like Ahri, Gragas, Kassadin, Kennen, LeBlanc, Annie or Ziggs.

AP Carry is definitely my weakest role. When I watch others play it, I notice that they always go ganking the sidelines and this is something that Ive been trying to work on when I am mid. Even if my champion is not very mobile like Lux, Morgana or Xerath, I still think it should be attempted. It is solo queue and if I want to carry, Ive got to make it happen and not rely on my team later on if possible .

P.S.S: Thanks for keeping the discussion civil.

 

Both of you aren't giving Lux's ganks enough credit, and I'm surprised at you for this, WD. Generally speaking, Lux only needs to walk about halfway up the river to nail her ult, and if you hit someone with that in the middle of a duel, it's almost certain death for the guy who got hit unless it's Tryndamere, and even then he might not pop his ult in time to save himself.

Then again, however, when will you ever be able to just run halfway up the river, blow your ult, and actually not regret it later on?

An efficient gank from Lux would probably require them to be pushed up hard enough that even if they see you coming you'll still kill one of them. Or, better yet, come in through your jungle and flash into Q range.

Her main problem, in my opinion, is that just like Cassiopeia, she has no escape or way to get to the lane faster, and that's the problem. By the time you go there for the gank the opportunity is probably gone.

Also, Lux has insane utilty, because her ultimate can be used to steal both dragon and baron from a very safe distance.

 

Hmm, I'd actually also agree that AP mid is the easiest lane to carry from. (Well, the position should actually belong to the jungler, but since we are talking about lanes...).

You guys are talking about ganking other lanes, etc. And tbh, while it is something that CAN be done, and should be done, it should be done with caution too. If you are ganking recklessly, you will fall behind in levels and cs, causing you to lose fights in mid. Only go gank when you can ensure kills or if you can get back before you lose minions.

Like you guys said, AP mid's strong points are early and mid games. That's exactly when the flow of the game usually changes and gets decided. Yes, there are late game combacks. But how often are those seen? Early game advantage means map control, dragon advantages. It's generally very hard to overcome that since the game snowballs.

Not to mention, if you are winning early fights, that means you AD carry gets fed too from kills.

Things like needing protection from team, positioning, I wouldn't really call as disadvantages. Bruisers need damage from behind them, Ad carry needs protection, Supports need their team there. It's a team game, so I am speaking from a viewpoint that your team isn't retarded.

 

:awesomeYou're all wrong and bad. Civil discussion is for noobs.

 

To me, playing with your best champion in a non-ranked game feels like a cop-out. I've never really seen the point in going your hardest in normal q, especially if you've got other champs that you could use. And, really, I'd be prouder of a 5/4/11 with, for me, Alistair than a 16/3/9 with Annie, because that says good things about my overall skill rather than my skill with just one champ.

 

The thing is that if you are going 16/3/9 with Annie, your normal elo goes up and you face better opponents. Not playing your best champ because "you do too well" is really a cop-out that keeps you playing against less skilled opponents. It's like dodging ranked queues so that your W:L and KDA look pretty.

 

Don't get me wrong, Lux's ganks are great if they're just ult-ganks. I've used it countless times to get kills. But if her ult is down? Or if the person you're firing at is a really dodgy/high reflexes opponent then you've got to get alot closer to lock them down.

(I love baron steals with Lux's ult. Cause it also weakens the team around baron. Easy, easy cleanup.)

Eh, but we're also talking about soloqueue here, speaking as if the team is not retarded is a fallacy.

If we want to talk theory, that's going to be one thing, but talking reality about the game is going to be something else entirely.

In theory (assuming a good team), AP mid is one of the easier lanes to carry, but in practice within soloqueue it's one of the hardest.

High level game play is different from mid-to-low level. And as good as I am, I still make some rather nasty mistakes on a common basis. So keep that in mind, I'm speaking in practical terms not theoretical.

 

True, but it's also more fun, and more rewarding, if I can get a good game going with a champ I'm bad at rather than just play with the ones that I know by heart. I really couldn't care less about my KDA ratios or my W/L ratio, I want to have fun, and I want a challenge. Playing with champions I'm bad at lets me have both.