Seems like you ignored my post, so I'm gonna reiterate this for you, Vincent: Itachi's goal in that fight was to die.

Now, who knows? Itachi could have given it his all up until activating his Mangekyou because he recognized Sasuke as being his equal in the general shinobi arts and found holding back to be unnecessary. What seems to be a lot more likely, however, is that he carefully controlled the entire fight so that it would end the way he wanted it to.

The fact of the matter is that both explanations are possible, which means we really can't use Sasuke's fight with Itachi as a of measurement of strength either way.

 

Would love a reference for this.

To me, the question of whether Sasuke was a challenge for Itachi is made moot by Sasuke's follow-up fight. He got absolutely fucking murder-stomped by Bee, who didn't even break a sweat and who would have handily killed them all if not for Karin's magic healing powers (and his own indifference to the fight).

Now while this might not seem to be very relevant to the topic at hand, personally I just could not see Itachi being taken to pieces in seconds by Bee like Sasuke was. With Itachi it just wouldn't happen.

 

Again, as I said earlier in that post, that might be fanon leaking in, which is entirely possible considering how much of it I used to read.

However, I'll defend the point by saying that you don't get better when you apparently spend quite a bit of time standing in front of a glorified gravestone, or intentionally being late. Now, that lateness could be used for training, because we don't see what he's doing while making other people wait.

(Also, I very seriously doubt that he consistently makes people wait three hours for him to show up to something. That was probably a one-off thing to see if they were actually patient enough to wait for him without doing something, which Naruto proved they were incapable of with his little... trap.)

 

Evan Tide stated his opinion on the matter. As Menace said it could be either case.

Yes, I'm sure that Sasuke sat down and thought to himself that he's a child thus he wants to attack Konoha because that's what kids do. When we're discussing a character's PoV it makes no sense to go on long rants about why you don't like the character. I don't care. It has nothing to do with anything I said. Sasuke specifically states why he hates Konoha now. It has everything to do with what they did to his family.

I was referring to Sasuke using his MS as a primary tool for fighting. I say something similar in the post that started all the whining.

Guy above my last post said something like "Sasuke was just at Kakashi's level." I then point out that Kakashi himself kept up with Itachi in their clashes when MS wasn't involved. Kakashi wasn't completely outclassed. Sure Kakashi could keep up with Itachi for a bit but when Sasuke enters the equation it's unreasonable?

Also I'm quite sure that Kakashi's only chance to beat Sasuke would be with a quick Kamui to the face. Kakashi admitted that Sasuke's Susanoo arrows were too fast for him to dodge. If he can't dodge the things consistently and doesn't have the chakra to keep using Kamui for defense then he's at a huge disadvantage. btw Guy's way of fighting the Sharingan only guards against genjutsu.

As I said before Sasuke was looking to interrogate Deidara for Itachi's location not kill him. I'm referring to after Deidara thinks he blew up Sasuke but was caught in Sasuke's genjutsu for a second. Sasuke comes out of nowhere and sucker punches the crap out of him instead of taking the kill. The weakest memeber of Akatsuki is Hidan hands down.

We've seen how it helped Deidara. Because Itachi had stomped him with a sharingan genjutsu Deidara trained his eye to counter genjutsu. Because Deidara did that he was able to see through Sasuke's attack and launched the counterattack which forced Sasuke to electrify himself half to death.

I did acknowledge your point in post 6629. I've been more arguing that it's plausible. We can't say it for certain but I don't see the fight as being something that needs to be carefully controlled. The way Itachi wanted the fight to end was with Sasuke winning. That allows a lot of freedom and how Itachi fought Sasuke was consistent with how he fought everyone else.

 

Congratulations, you took it at face value. The "he's a child" comment is my persepective, and I'll thank you to actually read something before you pull your mouth and hands away from Sasuke's dick to type.

Yeah, that's his reasoning. And it's bullshit, because the Uchiha put themselves in that position. Y'know, like I said in my first post arguing the point with you. It's #6606, for reference.

That's just it. You're comparing Itachi's fight with Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma where he doesn't use MS, to his fight with Sasuke where he does. Again, apples and oranges.

Fixed your spelling errors for you, at least in this part, free of charge. You can thank me later. You're minimalizing Kakashi, and that's not cool, mang. As I've already said, skill and experience will outclass raw power 99% of the time. The only time Kakashi would not theoretically win that fight is in the example you gave, where Sasuke spams Susanoo arrows. Except, if Kakashi does manage to dodge them all, Sasuke is fucked, because Susanoo presumably is a constant drain on chakra, and the arrows are probably a drain in and of themselves.

On the point of Gai's counter for the Sharingan, you have a point, but your point works both ways. If Kakashi can learn it, he can then not be trapped in any of Sasuke's genjutsu.

Source, please. Once more, fixed your errors.

You're really going to take that stance? Are you deep-throating Sasuke's cock, now? As I recall, Itachi's style was more of the "walk menacingly towards opponent, liberal use of Kage Bunshin, occasionally sprinkle in the explodey kind of bunshin" variety. Hell, he never once used Tsukuyomi in that fight, again, as I recall. He could've won the moment he and Sasuke's eyes connected, trapping his brother in reliving the massacre of their entire clan, again. Sasuke is such damaged goods that he'd have won right there, because it would cause two reactions from Sasuke;

Make Sasuke more angry, which is hilariously bad because then Itachi would've had to lower the amount of skill even more. Sudden rage like that is hard to control.

or

Sasuke curls up into a little ball and reverts to his six-year-old self, making the fight a moot point.

 

Did I really? I think I made it clear that I don't give a crap about your perspective later on in the paragraph. Thus me not seriously responding to it.

What you think of his reasoning is irrelevant. It's still his reasoning. You don't get to randomly change it. Also I recall ignoring your rant back then too. Because you know it didn't have anything to do with the conversation then either. We were discussing Sasuke's skills not his life's decisions.

I was referring to the portions of the fight where Itachi doesn't use his MS from the start. That's why I kept clarifying it as such.

I wouldn't call those spelling errors. It sounds more like you're overestimating him. Sasuke is not without skill and experience is not an instant fix for everything. All MS jutsu are incredibly fast. Sasuke has two for this battle with one doubling as an incredibly powerful defense. I highly doubt Kakashi could repeatedly dodge them seeing as he stated he couldn't the last time he faced them. He'd be in a similar position to Danzou but without the 10 extra lives.

I'm pretty sure that Kakashi has learned it. We see a flashback of him asking Guy about it before he fought the Itachi clone. I also knew what it meant when I said it. Sasuke only has one genjutsu strong enough to affect Kakashi regardless.

Are you seriously that lazy? Maybe if you spent less time trying to make my posts more grammatically correct and more time actually looking at the manga you'd have found it. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v39/c357/10.html http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v40/c360/15.html http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v40/c362/8.html

Really? I should have saved that last line for this paragraph because you clearly need to actually pick up the manga. Itachi used both kage bunshin and Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi was Itachi's first MS jutsu of the fight. Sasuke broke it. Clearly you're switching between Kakashi's and Itachi's cocks so much that you don't have the time to actually verify your crap before posting.

 

I guess that's something we share.

What I think of his reasoning? Also, where was I changing it? His reasoning is childish, and it is bullshit, and I've explained twice why it is. To quote the Fae from The Dresden Files, thrice and done. The Uchiha put themselves into the position to be massacred by Itachi, when they planned their coup. There is no denying this point. Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha for forcing Itachi to choose between family and village, and he's throwing a fit because Itachi chose the village over his family. Or, him. I'm not really sure, it's sort of interchangeable.

Using an acronym when actually typing out 'by the way' would take you an extra five seconds? Shit son, you've got cocks to suck, my bad.

Overestimating a guy trained by the Yondaime who went on to join ANBU and then become an Elite Jounin? Are you sure you aren't getting words mixed up? That was rhetorical, by the way.

You can't gauge the speed of a jutsu for shit from a manga panel, and the anime is at best a secondary source, what with all that filler and stuff. And the anime itself is spotty at best, what with the animation going from decent to even good on one episode to horrendously bad the next. Do I need to link that roadrunner Pain gif? I will, if you want.

I didn't say he could, I said in the event he did. Reading comprehension son, do you have it?

Ah, see, you're making assumptions. Which I've done as well, but this is a massive leap of logic. Because Kakashi has asked about it, you automatically assume that he has learned it. Should I then assume that because Naruto has asked Kakashi about it, he knows Chidori?

I'm happy for you, actually knowing what something meant when it came out of your mouth.

What jutsu is that? Tsukuyomi? By your own words, if Kakashi does indeed know how to get around the Sharingan's genjutsu boosting hax, then it's a moot point and bringing it up was just a whole bunch of hot air.

A) Bad grammar irks me, as it does many people on here. That's why, oh, I don't know, half the site has grammatically corrected someone else on at least one occasion?

B) Thanks for the source, bro. I'm proud of you for trawling through the manga for an hour to find the relevant pages. You're a real trooper. Gold star, A+ for effort.

C) I'm sorry I don't have the time to trawl through 18+ pages per chapter of a manga that's into the six hundreds now. Some of us have lives.

D) I'll concede the point, since you did provide a source.

You know what's funny? I'm reading the passage you quoted, and it clearly says the phrase "as I recall", which means that I had been working off memory. Furthermore, unlike you, apparently, some of us don't have the time to regularly read through a manga that's over six hundred chapters and counting. I mean, you might have the time to jerk off to Sasuke and paint the bottom of your desk again, and I'm sure your mom is quite content to clean it up, but some of us actually have jobs. To quote myself; reading comprehension, son, do you have it?

Maybe if you'd spent less time butthurt from Sasuke's latest ass-reaming, you'd have spent an extra minute reading. How's that ass-to-mouth taste, by the way?

 

Asshat + Assclown = Assclown wearing an asshat = you two.

Itachi > Sasuke.

Sharinghax aside, Itachi is faster and smarter, and Sasuke just has more chakra. Itachi wins.

End debate.

 

to be honest i wouldn´t be surprised if madara doesn´t get buttfucked somehow next week. i think his posture looks WAY too motivated. and i think by now we all now that the second the bad guy looses his superiority act he looses. ; P

 

Madara may be free, but he's also lost all the advantages from the Edo tensei, right? If he gets cut in half again, he will die.

So Dan basically confirmed that there is an afterlife in the Narutoverse. Leave a whole slew of possibilities open to fanfiction.

 

wait, doesn´t the existance of et itself implay that? also remember the kakashi dying an meeting his father thing when pein attacked?

and i understood madara in the sense that he will basically just be an unbound et zombie. maybe another translation will shed more light, but he said undying body and unlimited chakra, right?

p.s. just checked the mangastream translation: http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/76157510/23

here´s the same page i linked earlier. i think i am right about this, but maybe you read it differently?

btw. i hate that they put those faggy fanart pages in front of the manga pages. that sasuke with bleeding eyes one was particularily terrible.

 

Sasuke's get out of jail for free card? He's a hero now! He stopped the Edo Tensei! All hail Sasuke!

>_>

Anyways, I think Madara still has the full benefits of Edo Tensei. However, unlimited chakra? How's that work?

 

Would Itachi have stopped Kabuto if it weren't for Sasuke? Did Sasuke participate, did he do anything useful? Itachi could have used Izanami at any time, couldn't he?

 

Sasuke will probably get his get out of jail free card when he uses whatever Suigetsu and Juugo have on the Edo Tensei to finally put down Madara.

 

I have no idea how the Senju Harishirama was supposed to be greater than Madara. For all I can see the guy seems to be a battle god.

 

Honestly it doesn't make sense to me that Madara was even close to this powerful in life. I think it's just Kishimoto wanting to make his final villains as super as possible.

 

I will stress that many of Madara's abilities and effectiveness were greatly enhanced by the Edo Tensei. How many times would he have died during the battle with the Kages without the immortality of the Edo Tensei?

And also, I have absolutely no trouble picturing Hashirama stronger than Madara. Hashirama was for all intents and purposes a god. Not just of destruction either, is it fanon or canon that he created the forest around the village? Whichever the case, we know he could do it.

Makes me wanna read a good Mokuton!Naruto fic. Anyone knw anything?

 

@howdy near as I can tell Kakashi did not stagnate. Or if he did, it was between the time skip, not Hefore it. As of the second databook, he had 44.5 total stats, an increase of 1.5 stats from the first one. In the third one (the first one post time skip) he had the same number of points. So if anything, he had grew more while teaching team 7 than when he was alone. Which makes sense, unless he taught the kids all day, he would have time to train himself after or in combination with his team. If he is going on missions, he won't have time to train. I can't find any source that says he ever said he stagnated at any point at all.

 

I concur. He didn't have the Rinnegan, nor did he have unlimited chakra and regenerative capabilities... Susanoo isn't impenetrable - or, it shouldn't be....but one has to wonder how Hashirama could match up...he'd need to be faster, and be able to penetrate Susanoo, as well as avoid Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, if Madara even uses them. I suppose Hashirama's master Medical jutsu was pretty damned useful.

 

Its a shame Orochimaru never learned Edo Tensei considering that it would have apparently fullfilled his dream of immortality so easily. All it would have taken is having Kabuto summon him and then using this seal Madara pulled out of his ass. Or the inventor Tobirama himself, considering that if Madara knew this seal he obviously should have. As such, its good Tobirama was never brought back as ET since he would have been able to break free and become an immortal hokage guardian.

I did find it somewhat amusing though that Itachi actually made the situation far worse. All the dangerous ETs were alreasy sealed, so as far as the world is concerned only Madara was a threat. And Itachi actually gave him true freedom. So much for being considered a hero .