I am pretty sure the burden of proof states that you need to prove something exists, rather than prove something does not exist.

Could you prove beyond any doubt, that the Uchiha were not secretly all shapeshifting brainsucking aliens that were planning on taking over the world, and that by killing them all, Danzo is the greatest hero ever? No solid evidence to the contrary I can see (they do shapeshift afterall).

Maybe. Though that viewpoint takes a blow when we consider the fact that a 13 year old Uchiha got the job as the captain of the ANBU. And this was before any of the coup stuff so the idea that he got the job because he was loyal to Konoha over Uchiha does not fly.

 

That's nice in the real world but this is a manga and Tobi is currently the sole source of information on the subject. If we discount every character statement that isn't proven then we don't really have a manga. I'd understand taking it with a grain of salt. I never said treat it as fact, but we don't really have any reason whatsoever of the Uchiha rebelling other than what Tobi's said.

 

The problem is that Tobi has been proven to be an untrustworthy source of information. He is not just some random character giving us info. He is a final villain candidate and a proven deceiver that wants to mind-control the entire world. He lied about who he was. He lied about not being responsible for the Kyuubi attack. There is a big difference in accepting him as a source of information, compared to some other random person in the manga.

If he lied about those things, why should I accept that he just happened to tell the truth about Uchiha being discriminated? Especially when we consider the fact that Tobi wanted Sasuke to work for him, and painting the Uchiha as innocents victims tormented by the evil Konoha would be EXACTLY the kind of lie that would best work.

Add to this the fact that unless I am missing something, there is literally zero evidence to support what Tobi said, and suddenly it all starts to look awfully suspicious. Heck, there is even some evidence to the contrary. Itachi for example calls the Uchihas plan for the coup as foolishness, which does not exactly make sense if the Uchiha actually had justified cause for their plans.

Bottom line, nothing Tobi says can be trusted, and there is no other indication of any discrimination and several cases to actually suggest the opposite.

EDIT: Oh, and there are several other options for Uchiha rebelling. They might have become greedy for power and wanted to rule Konoha all by themselves. They might have been mindcontrolled or otherwise manipulated by Tobi/someone. Or some other explanation we have no idea. Or it might be that they actually WERE discriminated against and Kishi will eventually give us a flashback that proves it. But for me atleast, the time to believe is the moment I get evidence to confirm it to be true, not before.

 

Tobi's been proven to be untrustworthy where Tobi is concerned. Not really in general. He's where we got the knowledge of the sage, his sons, Izanagi, and Madara. I think it's telling that Kishi hasn't taken the opportunity to establish that Tobi was lying about it yet. The only other time I can see it coming up is with the people Sasuke's going to see.

The coup itself supports what Tobi said. It's simply not enough to confirm it. I've seen nothing that contradicts Tobi's claims on the subject. We've seen almost no interaction with Uchiha during the time. Itachi calling the coup foolish makes perfect sense as he's a pacifist. He obviously would be against an action leading to war.

Anyway I don't see why you are ranting in the first place. My statement was

Just as one can't claim that Tobi's account is the truth, one can't dismiss them as a lie and go on about how the Uchiha were clearly to blame as though they didn't have some justification.

 

At this point I'm just really interested in who Tobi is.

From all of the shit he knows, and the crazy powers he seems to possess, I can only assume that he's someone older/more knowledgeable than the likes of Uchiha Madara. Which leads me to believe that he was either simply name dropping when he made his little evil speech to Nagato, or he was referencing a different Uchiha Madara than the one currently trolling the Kage. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the Uchiha Madara we know was named after an older character - maybe the first Uchiha or the Sage himself. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tobi turned out to be the Sage, who survived his "death" and became disenfranchised of his idea of world peace (though this would just be a rehash of the Nagato plot) or the older heir who wanted to use power to control the world.

Actually, even the younger heir would make some sense with his incredible life-force allowing him to remain alive all this time while also able to integrate things like Sharingan and Rinnegan into his body.

Two things I really want to happen right now in the manga are for the Madara fight to wrap up (really, what is the point of it now?) and for Sasuke to sort of disappear into the background. I just can't see Sasuke as a more legitimate villain than Tobi, or even Nagato, despite how powerful he might become. Kishimoto has done at least a decent job of developing his villains based on character and motivation, and Sasuke's both suck ass.

 

There is one random foreshadowing from Itachi that might actually suggest this to be the case. When Naruto was going all "ill end all the wars by myself", Itachi rebuked Naruto for that attitude and said that if he tried to do everything by himself, he would eventually become like Tobi.

The older "evil" brother being Tobi might make sense, but I think it would actually be more interesting if it was the younger and ageless brother who had tried to bring peace to the world only to fail again and again and again. His words at the Kage summit about how its all hopeless further imply a personality that has given up.

Naruto has promised Nagato that he will do his best to bring unity and peace to the world, and in the Sasuke/Naruto conflict he has taken the role of the younger brother. How would he react if he learned that the evil bad guy Tobi, was actually a reflection of himself that tried for centuries to do what he plans to try to do, and failed utterly and repeatedly, until all that was left was forcibly mind-controlling everyone.

The only problem with the idea that Tobi is the original sage or one of the brothers is that when Naruto learned the true original names of the bijuu, Tobi apparently had no idea what he was talking about. The sage certainly would have known the names since he is the one that gave them so that would remove the sage as a candidate. However perhaps the brothers never learned those names, or perhaps Tobi was pretending ignorance since revealing that he knew those names would have exposed him as someone ancient.

EDIT: Oh and Vincent, I am not ranting against you so please don't get the idea that I am somehow attacking you or anything . I just wanted to bring out my view up that there is no acceptable proof and that the default position is disbelief until proven otherwise.

 

A new theory. Tobi is Sasuke. Sasuke Sarutobi. You know, because of Saru-Tobi.

 

I dunno Naruto is already Mind-controlling anyone who fights against him except Orochimaru, who is awesome like that.

 

Dammit can't anybody in this manga stay dead? I swear Orochimaru is like a cockroach, he just won't stay down. Kishimoto has made it pretty clear that the only way a character stays dead is if they're sealed in side the shinigami. Which means Jiraiya is probably going to make a reappearance.

 

I doubt Jiraiya will be revived after Kabuto specifically said he couldn't find any dna from him.

 

Tobi might revive him to use against Naruto. His intangibility,Izanagi,ability to find things (teleported to Sasuke in the middle of nowhere) and teleportation would allow him to recover Jiraiyas body from the bottom of the ocean.

Tobi also knows how to perform Edo Tensei, since he watched Kabuto perform the full technique using his sharingan which would have recorded every detail.

Tobi is also wants to acquire Kyuubi from Naruto, so reviving Jiraiya to mess with Narutos head would be motivation enough.

Better get ready for edo!Jiraiya

 

This was a Naruto chapter.

Fucking brilliant.

http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/65097047/1

 

Dear Lord I can't stop laughing to the Kirabi's dream hahahhahahahha that made my day.:banana:

That is fine dream indeed. :fire:awesome:fire

*Finally some revelant progress.

 

So, anyone else get the Tobi= Obito vibe?

 

Yeah. From all usual suspects only he personally knows Kakashi.

Anyway - Naruto vs Tobi. Round 2. Fight.

 

This would be the worst thing ever. Seriously.

On top of that it would be entirely nonsensical.

So where is Tobi getting his indestructible gear from? Naruto needs some of that.

Tobi knows Gai too. That was what the "you don't remember faces" comment is about.

 

seems like for the first time we´ll get to see tobi fight seriously... not just abuse his space warp technique. i am intrugued. do you think that fan of his was madaras?

 

If this was in written form instead of (admittedly awesome) comic art, these plots would be as bad as the fanfiction we used to make fun of. I still can't stomach what Kishi did with the Bijuu. Just ... ugh.

 

Cool chapter. One thing bothers me though. What was the point of all this fighting? And I mean all of it. I mean Tobi basically outright states here, that he can perform his ultimate genjutsu using just the diminished Juubi formed without Kyuubi and Hachibi. Those two were never required. So why he heck did he even bother fighting them or the alliance then? What was the point of this entire war?

Tobi got the tentacle before the war even started, and Kabuto resurrected Kinkaku and Ginkaku before the war started. Can anyone explain to me why Tobi did not just capture those two right at the start, feed them to his statue, and form the exact same Juubi he is forming now, right at the start?

Because right now, it seems me that everything that has happened recently, the war to capture Naruto and Bee. All that fighting. It was all completely unnecessary and meaningless for Tobis plan. If Tobi had actually been in any way competent, the world would have been placed under his genjutsu, lets see, around chapter 515, when Kabuto used ET to bring the zombies forth. Everything since then has basically been filler.

Or am I missing something here?

 

>implying he actually wants to genjutsu the world and isn´t lying again.

believable motives stem from believable character developement after all and as has been stated before: tobi has lied about almost? everything else so far...

so he might be telling the truth this time or he might not... until we figure out, or it´s revealed to us who or what he actually is everythings possible really.

or you are simply right and this is another huge incosistency in writing.