Well, if I were to think up explanation I'd go with saying that the imperfect Juubi is not enough to control the most strong-willed shinobi. This way the war makes sense because Tobi either captures Naruto and Bee, and goes with the perfect version or thin out these who may escape his genjutsu, so he has less people to kill personally later on.

 

Yeah, that would make sense. Hopefully it is something like that, where a weakened Juubi means a Tsukyomi thats not so infinite. Tobi is claiming that he can do the full thing even with a weaker Juubi, but hopefully he is just bluffing. I suppose the part where they all spoke of their dreams being important and such could be foreshadowing that sufficiently strong will/desire can break free.

I wonder how Tobi intends to control Juubi. Can he just instantly get access to the things full powers without any of the trouble Naruto had to go through I wonder. I seem to recall that at one point, Tobi intended to sync Sasuke with the statue. Whatever happened to that plan?

Another odd thing is that Kurama did not mention the chakras he and Naruto got from the other bijuu at all. I would have expected they would have been mentioned. I mean we basically had solid confirmation, that you can create some form of Juubi so long as you have even a tiny piece of all the bijuu. And Kurama does have 8 out of 9 required components to do exactly what Tobi is doing right now. Would have expected that possibility to atleast be mentioned. Unless that whole thing is a red herring (which would suck).

Yeah, Tobi is an untrustworthy liar, but I don't really see what benefit there would be in lying at this point anymore. Lying to Sasuke about not being responsible for the Kyuubi attack and about being Madara both made sense, since those were the kind of lies that made Sasuke more likely to be willing to work with Tobi.

But Juubi is already forming, so what possible benefit would there be for Tobi to be spouting big speeches about his genjutsu plan anymore, if thats not actually his plan. Obviously Naruto&co are going to do everything in their power to try and stop him regardless, so lying now would be pretty pointless.

 

I concur. I'm always grateful for more information about the sage of the six paths or the Juubi but yeah the writing was cheesy or I'm becoming too jaded towards the manga. Though it was nice to have a chapter centered on Naruto's fight.

 

I wonder why Tobi doesn't just grab the statue and teleport elsewhere to wait for the ten tails' revival. Why fight and leave the possibility of the thing being injured?

 

Just read The Girl From Whirlpool and it was so good that it re-energized me to this manga. So, fresh-faced and eager, I plunged back in to catch back up.

And I'm now apathetic again. Damn

I'm starting to thing that Kishi was created to balance out GRRM. For every character George gleefully slays Kishi finds it necessary to revive one from no where.

 

Can't the hosts of the tailed beast use their friendship-magic to break genjutsu? Or is that fanon. The whole point has not been to Resurrect the ten tails (which he has been able to do for a while now) but rather that he has to eliminate the last people who would be able to resist the genjutsu he will place on the whole world. Otherwise, they could just escape, and then free the others.

Man, that would be a cool 'fic though.

 

That's canon. Though it seems like it would have been easier to take out the host without their allies and with the ten tails.

 

Yes and no.

In Naruto, anyone can free another person from genjutsu by injecting chakra into their body. That disrupts genjutsu. At the very start of Shippudeen, when Itachi has Naruto in a genjutsu, he is released from it by Sakura (I think) doing just that. Thats also when this "partner" method is first explained.

The only difference with hosts, is that their bijuu can do this for them, and since the bijuu lives inside the host that means a host always has someone ready to inject chakra into them to disrupt a genjutsu.

However Tobi was able to use genjutsu to control the previous Mizukage, who was a host of Sanbi. Apparently there is some way of bypassing the host/bijuu protection. Presumably if both the host AND the bijuu are both placed in a genjutsu simultaneously, neither can free the other and both are trapped. No doubt Tobis Juubi-powered genjutsu will do just that, which means that Kyuubi and Hachibi will be trapped in the genjutsu just as much as Naruto and Bee will. Which means that Naruto cannot use the partner method to release Kyuubi, and Kyuubi cannot use the partner method to release Naruto.

 

This is just a guess on my part, but I think you could still blindly do it if you wanted. Obviously, this blind method would only work for Jinchuuriki since they would be the only ones who knew for a fact that their tailed beast was there. Granted, a very powerful genjutsu could convince them that the beast is no longer there, but the theory is still workable.

Isn't there some other method of disrupting genjutsu where you stop your flow of chakra briefly and then let it go again?

 

That would be the normal way to do it.

The problem arises when you either don't know you're in a genjutsu or the genjutsu is simply too strong to disrupt in that way, a-la Sharingan genjutsu. Which is why you always fight an Uchiha 2 to 1, if you're smart.

 

Tobi is the main villain, cool as Kakashi is he isn't going to be the one who beats Tobi.

 

When you say blindly, do you mean the idea the idea that Naruto and Kyuubi are just strolling along when suddenly, Kyuubi just pushes chakra to Naruto just to see if both are in genjutsu, even though it has nothing to suggest any genjutsu exists? I suppose that would work on normal level genjutsu that would affect both.

That being said, I wonder if it would be possible for extremely powerfull genjutsu to just be too strong to break. If so, Juubi-powered genjutsu would certainly qualify.

There is also the dilemma about Tsukuyomi. When Itachi used Tsukyomi, it actually warps time itself (or the perception of it anyway) so that the victim experiences the full effects of the genjutsu in just a few seconds, while days pass for the victim inside the genjutsu. So I think he tortured Kakashi for three days non-stop, while only something like 3 seconds passed in reality (so second/day for example).

When Kakashi describes this in the same discussion early-shippudeen about breaking genjutsu, he states that the partner method won't work on Tsukuyomi (since by the time anyone realises its been used, its already finished). The question is, would it work for a jinchuuriki. Its possible that the bijuu would be "trapped" in the same altered time, so the bijuu would obviously then have days worth of time to free the host. But if the effect ignored the bijuu, then by the time even a bijuu realised its host was in Tsukyomi, it would mostly be over. So lets say Naruto is trapped in Itachis Tsukyomi, and Kyuubi is not affected. Kyuubi then notices after 2 seconds that Naruto is in a genjutsu, and breaks him free. That would still mean that Naruto had just been continuously tortured for 48 hours. Kyuubi would have just saved him from the last 24. How Tsukuyomi affects the bijuu is currently atleast not clarified.

That all being said, I wonder what kind of technique Tobis genjutsu really will be. I mean I could see three obvious answers.

1. It will be like Itachis Tsukyomi. That means that the moment he starts the technique, everyone in the entire world will just stop (from the POV of an outside observer) and be trapped in Tsukyomi. This has the potential problem that unless it also totally freezes time, everyones physical bodies will eventually starve and humanity will die.

2. It will just alter perception, so people will continue moving and such, but they are trapped in genjutsu where they see stuff that is not there, and act in ways they normally would not act, without any idea that anything is even wrong. Tobi however spoke of strange stuff such as the idea that his genjutsu will create "a singular consciousness that has abandoned all individuality". That seems more like the Borg of Star Trek, and it does not really fit with the view of this kind of genjutsu. Heck, it does not really fit the first view either.

3. Maybe it will not even be a genjutsu (or illusion) in the traditional sense. It could be more like Izanagi was, where Tobi will actually somehow warp reality itself, so we would be speaking less of deception of human senses, and more of literal alteration of the universe on a basic level. This would explain how Tobi plans to actually erase individuality and apparently also link human minds in a group consciousness somehow. Tobi has also never demonstrated the ability to use normal Tsukuyomi, but has demonstrated Izanagi. Though if so, why is it not called Infinite Izanagi instead.

I really really hope Tobi is not Obito. It might impress fans of that theory, and have a certain shock value at first, "Ooh! TObito!". But once you actually start to think about it, having Tobi be Obito would not make any sense and would just be lame. I want him to be someone more unique and special than some random Uchiha that got hit by a big rock.

 

Yes it is.

This is exactly how Bee escapes Sasuke's Tsukuyomi during their fight. Bijuu experience the same time dilation as their hosts do.

 

I don't think there is anything to show that Sasukes Tsukyomi has the same time dilating effect that Itachis did. Infact, the fact he does not use any against Danzo atleast implies that he cannot use any (Danzo even mocks him about this). I atleast cannot recall any use of Tsukyomi at that level by Sasuke, and Itachi is better at genjutsu compared to Sasuke (while Sasuke is better at Amaterasu).

There is also the fact that Naruto atleast seemed to believe that if edo!Itachi caught Bee in Tsukuyomi, it would be over for Bee. Though to be fair, Naruto would actually have no way of knowing whether or not Hachibi could release Bee.

A bijuu can obviously break ordinary MS-level genjutsu however. Its only the time-dilation that may or may not cause trouble.

 

The host/bijuu protection only exist for a host who has tamed their bijuu. If the bijuu has no intention of helping their host then they're screwed. The Mizukage may not have tamed his beast.

 

I'd sort of assumed that Tobi had gotten into Yagura's head and mind-controlled both man and bijuu - hence the speculation that Yagura had complete mastery when really both were Tobi's puppets.

 

This is quite plausible. Though Yagura was the chosen spokesperson for the jinchuuriki/bijuu when Naruto met them all during that whole chakra-transfer episode. That might imply he was actually a perfect host, since presumably everyone respected him enough to have him talk for them. Not prove it though.

 

It is all a little weird, Kotoamtsukami is supposed to be more powerful than Tsukiyomi so perhaps even Bijuu/Jinchuuriki bromance powers can't break it.

 

Hard to say. I think its a technique thats been a bit inconsistent.

For example, Itachi implanted a command to "protect Konoha" in Naruto, and intended for that technique to fire on Sasuke. Obviously if it would be easily broken (such as say Suigetsu or Juugo pointing out to Sasuke that he is obviously in a genjutsu or trying to break it with the partner method which is exactly what the bijuu use), then it would be utterly pointless and would not have done what Itachi wanted.

On the other hand, when Danzo uses it on that Samurai leader (Mifune I think?), it works and Mifune chooses Danzo. However when it is pointed out to the guy that he was manipulated, he has no trouble choosing Raikage as the real leader later. Should he still not have been under Koto and had a compulsion in his head to choose Danzo, no matter how much he knew he should not. Otherwise this technique conflicts with Itachis plan.

For that matter, I remember it being talked in another Naruto forum about how edo!Itachi actually should have done something about Sasuke. I mean Itachi was implanted with the command to protect Konoha, and that was strong enough to override the Edo Tensei tag in his head. But then he meets Sasuke, who repeatedly informs Itachi (who is still under Koto to Protect Konoha) that he infact intends to destroy Konoha utterly. Was Itachi just that convinced that Naruto would succeeed? Because it almost seems to me that Itachi should have been compelled to try to kill Sasuke, or atleast try to convince him NOT to destroy Konoha. Hmm, though I suppose in a way he did by showing Sasuke that it was basically Danzo who arranged the massacre all on his own. Danzo, who Itachi had already learned had been killed by Sasuke after his death. Itachi might not have realised how insane Sasuke had got after his death.

 

Random thought I had when I remembered Kisame's words of a 'world without lies,' synching' with the Gedo Mazo, and the Rinnegan's Paths and supposed abilities.

Since it appears the Gedo Mazo is actually the Ten-Tails' vessel, then maybe what Tobi wants is the effects of the chakra rods in genjutsu form, which might result in him being able to dominate others like Nagato tried to with Naruto with his chakra alone. This would be game over for the good guys (minus those with enormous chakra/whatever else Naruto used) considering how powerful the Ten-Tails was supposed to be.

If the genjutsu does emulate the rods and the multi-body inhabiting powers, then everyone might be able to experience everyone else's thoughts/emotions/etc.

Or he's lying and just wants to stab everyone in the world with the chakra rods until they submit.

This train of thought made me also begin to wonder if the different powers of the Paths were the result of synching with the Gedo Mazo. Especially since even Kurama considers it to be the progenitor of everything...