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Legilimency/Occlumency, how to write it?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by SilverOtter, Sep 20, 2012.

  1. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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  2. KHAAAAAAAN!!

    KHAAAAAAAN!! Troll in the Dungeon –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    This. Shields and probes are fine in a story so long as it's beginners doing the shielding/probing. A master occlumens/legilimens should be able to protect/penetrate a mind without anyone the wiser.
     
  3. Heather_Sinclair

    Heather_Sinclair Chief Warlock

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    Must... hold back... Slash jokes... GAH!
     
  4. Nocturnesthesia

    Nocturnesthesia Fourth Year

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    My favorite portrayal of Occlumency was probably in The Snape Chronicles by Rannaro. "Shields" are done by amateurs, but Snape is a pro who can lead Voldemort through decoys and show him real memories and emotions out of context while being tortured and mind raped.

    Early on in the fic it is a minor plot point that Snape's mother had some Legilimency talent that she used to figure out what he wanted as a child, and he gradually learned to hide things from her via Occlumency as he grew up. Basically he is a great Occlumens because his mind is always closed off and organized. The best written Occlumency in the entire fic has got to be this chapter which is just after Voldemort's return when Snape has his loyalty tested.
     
  5. Heather_Sinclair

    Heather_Sinclair Chief Warlock

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    This is the cliche fanon crap that I hate the most.

    Occlumency =/= organized mind (library mindscapes, instant recall, super-duper power control, etc.) all due to Occlumency.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only time an organized mind is discussed anywhere in HP was when Dumbledore was speaking about death and it being the next great adventure to those with an organized mind.

    Did I miss something in my reading?
     
  6. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I read something one time where Luna was a type of natural Occlumens because her mind was so disordered - no one could find anything in it or make sense of what they did find there.
     
  7. Knyght

    Knyght Alchemist

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    Just once? I've seen the idea a fair few times.

    Though I've only seen it be relevant once.
     
  8. Nocturnesthesia

    Nocturnesthesia Fourth Year

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    No, you're right, it was never otherwise mentioned in canon. I've only seen the library imagery used once or twice. The fic I linked doesn't do that, by "organized" I just meant Snape growing up with an unstable father and Legilimens mother, along with being ostracized and bullied at school before joining Voldemort, led to him having admirable control of his emotions/memories. He is skilled enough to present an intentionally crafted gauntlet of real thoughts and memories (along with some fake "shields") for Voldemort's benefit. If that's not an organized mind I don't know what is.
     
  9. Immet

    Immet Seventh Year

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    Snape having control of his emotions? That's complete bullshit. Isn't he the one who can't give up a grudge from over 15 years ago to the point of ignoring the truth to get Sirius killed, and who stormed in the next day completely furious with Harry and emotionally out of control?

    That sounds like the same sort of Rickman inspired view of Snape as those that think he doesn't have terrible hair, objectively ugly face and yellowing teeth.
     
  10. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    To say he can't get rid of a grudge implies that he wants to and is unable to.

    It's entirely possible that the grudge is compatible with emotional control if he likes holding it.
     
  11. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    My view of Occlumency is that it's pretty much like lying. A master of Occlumency would be very much like the type of person who can convince themselves of their own lies.

    So maybe the type of Occlumency that Snape practices allows him to not only hide his thoughts from Voldemort, but to make it seem (and for all intents and purposes be) that he is a truly loyal Death Eater.

    The type that he was teaching Harry, however, would be more akin to a mental poker face than anything else. Not giving anything away, but making it obvious you're doing so at the same time.
     
  12. Henry Persico

    Henry Persico Groundskeeper DLP Supporter

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    You think? I do not. On the contrary, it means that the grudge and the desire of revenge rule your emotional self. If you have control over your emotions you would realize that holding a grudge is not only irrational it also condemn you to a poor form of existence.
     
  13. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Uh. What? If Snape is simply an asshole who likes taking jibes at Harry, then how does this affect emotional control either way? Controlling your emotions isn't a way to enlightenment nor does it make you a better person. It's perfectly possible to be both very controlled and an asshole -- and that's leaving aside that for the latter the verdict "poor form of existence" is very much debatable from a subjective point of view.

    That aside though, we have this:

    A "closed mind" does not immediately imply subterfuge when being probed by the Legilimency spell. It sounds more like the old "shield"-version -- or, barring that, a state where simply no obvious thoughts are there to be read. That works well enough with "clear your mind", I suppose.

    In any case, if Legilimency can be employed like Snape seems to do it in this duel, you'd think Aurors are shown a technique to counter it, whether that's "clear your mind" or something else.
     
  14. Henry Persico

    Henry Persico Groundskeeper DLP Supporter

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    I don't agree. He holds a grudge for 17 years, against a boy who didn't do anything to him, and more important against a dead guy. And don't forget, he is in love with the concept of a woman who not only didn't love him back, she is dead too... I don’t see how he can have his emotions under control.
    And I'm not talking about enlightenment nor trying to be a better person. If you are holding a grudge, for whatever reason, that marks you emotionally. And it's a weight that doesn't let you live your life fully. Just because Snape only screams a couple of times in the books doesn’t mean he’s in control. He's just reserved. He is a guy with an exceptional willpower and a very skilled and talented wizard, sufficient reasons to master occlumency and legilimency.
     
  15. enembee

    enembee The Nicromancer DLP Supporter

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    A master of emotional control indeed.
     
  16. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    To be fair, Snape was right XD
     
  17. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    ...and wanted to put an innocent man in prison.

    I still sometimes wonder in disbelief as to why certain people like Snape.
     
  18. TRH

    TRH Groundskeeper

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    And in the process of getting that innocent imprisoned, he also managed to convince Fudge that Harry and friends had been mentally addled by a Confundus Charm. Between that and Rita Skeeter is it really too surprising that Fudge didn't take Harry seriously at the end of GOF?
     
  19. Publius

    Publius First Year

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    Ditto to all of the above, especially considering Snape was hiding under the Invisibility Cloak for the entire conversation and knew that Sirius was innocent before revealing himself. I think most people who like Snape tend to ignore that entire scene. Frankly, I think most of them only like Snape because of Alan Rickman, but that's another kettle of fish.

    As for the main topic, I think Sesc above was right in pointing out that Snape talks about "closing" as well as hiding one's mind. In my fic, I tend to divide Occlumency into two parts. The first and easiest discipline is placing 'walls' or external barriers. However, this has the unfortunate side effect of being noticeable, and there are no further protections if penetrated. The second and much more difficult technique is creating a secondary 'mind' that hides your true thoughts from legilimency entirely.

    In Snape's situation, the second technique is absolutely necessary: if Voldemort weren't able to read his mind and be convinced by its veracity, he'd probably just AK Snape. However, I'd say the first technique is no less necessary, as it provides protection from compulsions, behavior-modifying potions, veritaserum, etc., without the damage that such external influences would cause to your secondary persona. That's my pet theory, anyway.
     
  20. Iztiak

    Iztiak Prisoner DLP Supporter

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    What, isn't it canon that Sirius tried to get Snape killed via Remus? I'd say that being nice to Harry and other people doesn't necessarily excuse him for that. Especially to Snape, who he's never been nice to, pre or post attempted murder. So, yes, innocent of killing muggles, but I don't really think Snape gives a fuck if he's innocent of that particular crime. Now, I like Sirius, but I don't think that Snape is entirely unreasonable about being happy to assist the government in finding the man they're looking for. Even if he's innocent of killing the muggles and Pettigrew.

    I wouldn't do it in his position, but I don't think that he's lacking sufficient motivation to see Sirius locked up.

    Snape is a bit pathetic, he's rude, condescending, ugly, and a generally nasty person. He's still probably one of my favorite characters in the books.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
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