And still made some later on in his old age.

 

This is the thing that, for me, makes HP fanfiction worth reading. Even providing reasons why things work like they do is interesting in itself. But then I am a huge fan of fics that have a lot of magical theory.

 

I'm not a fan of the typical super!Harry - never have been, if I'm being completely honest - but my rationale is slightly different than Taure's. I understand why people like those kinds of stories, but to me there's no drama in a story that's just Harry kicking ass. To me, that's not drama - that's masturbation. Even with Denarian!Harry and the ramped up challenge that made it feel like there was a credible threat, I still didn't like Harry's largely static characterization and the steadily growing feeling that I was just reading a Super!Harry cut from darker cloth.

But let's also be completely honest here - the Dumbledore!Harry idea can be just as bad (or worse) than the Super!Harry option. Sure, Harry might be more calm, more 'wise', more reserved in those stories, but as it's been said, it takes time for Harry to reach that point, hence why he's often cast as an adult in stories with this sort of characterization. I'm not really a fan of this as a starting point, as it's character development we don't really see, but I get why people use it. But frankly, I don't find this particular characterization all that engaging either, mostly because there's a fine line between likeable underdog and smug tosspot, and there are too many authors who can't toe that line (one of my biggest issues with jbern's work, if I'll be blunt here). And let's be honest - to some authors on these forums, it's just another form of masturbation.

And while I can say that I have rarely written a traditionally 'likeable' Harry, I'd still argue as a protagonist he's more 'human' and believable that others that go the Super!Harry or Dumbledore!Harry route. Yeah, he can be a paranoid, bad-tempered jackass at points (which is explained), but he's also so overmatched and way over his head that one can understand these emotions. One's things for damn sure, he's definitely not a character one would consider 'awesome' - and those that managed to finish Renegade Cause probably realized that was ultimately part of the point.

Or take Sesc's noir take on Harry, a former hero trapped in the dull office drudgery and craving any escape, even if the escapes are dangerous beyond measure. He's not wise, he's just bitter. Matt's version of Harry from Incorruptible is similar somewhat, but cut from a slightly nobler cloth. But neither of them I'd consider all that 'awesome', per se. They're just very human, and that's the reason I find them compelling.

And of course, the ur-example here is Wastelands!Harry - a version of Harry Potter who's half-mad, not nearly as wise as he should be, reckless as all hell, and a hopeless romantic. Sure, anyone can tell that Joe's writing a stylized version of himself - oh, I'm sorry, his version of the 'ideal man', but Joe does something that elevates things. Sure, his Harry can definitely be classified as 'awesome', but he makes him human with certain scenes I won't spoil because they're so fucking good. If anything, his version of Harry is the ultimate defense of the 'awesome-Harry' archetype in stories - namely because even behind all the sparkle and scotch, he's still very human.

So I'm not really sure what this post accomplishes. I guess I can state that I'm not a fan of the 'typical' Super/Indy!Harry template (Harry gets powers, Harry goes on shopping trip/revenge spree, Harry gets sucked off by everything with tits except Slughorn and Dudley), but DLP's grown past that anyways. And while I do understand the appeal of Dumbledore-esque Harry, I want to state that it really is written under the same rationale as Super!Harry, just with a different cloak and wizard hat.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't care if Harry's an action hero, a scholar, or a desperate outlaw - as long as he feels real and human, I'll find something to like about him.

 

If you don't like a Harry Potter who is better than canon, go back and read the books. The main reason most of the indy! Harry came into circulation is due to canon Harry being a pussy.

Like someone posted, James, Lily and Snape were three extremly talented individuals. Dumbledore did things with his wand Marchbanks never saw before and the same could be said about Tom Riddle.

And while I like stories where Harry shows some 'ambition' and actually tries to become a better wizard, I don't think Harry would be anywhere near even Moody's level at 17, let alone Dumbledore or Voldemort's level. And yes, if Harry was somewhere between 30-40 years in age, he would stand a chance against Voldemort.

 

You need to rethink you definition of the word pussy. Harry goes after the stone, into the chamber of secrets, through the tunnel under the whomping willow, etc knowing that it could be extremely dangerous. He stands, unyielding against forces he believes to be wrong and walks to his death without hesitation to save others. That guy is nowhere close to a pussy.

I like reading well written stories of a smart and powerful Harry so that he won't go to face these situations completely unprepared.

 

I never really minded Harry's skill level that much. But when he argued with Lupin after the battle in the early parts of Deathly Hallows about not wanting to stun death eaters cause they might fall and die, I fucking facepalmed.

 

To be fair, he was talking about an Imperiused Stan Shunpike, not an actual DE as such. Still, I'm guessing he'd have some lameass objections to that, as well. It's kind of sad, really.

 

@ The Infidel. Harry Potter got through the stone and the chamber through what McGonagall would say 'Sheer dumb luck'.

I was talking about Harry's lack of motivation to be better prepared. He only learnt spells so that he could get through the tournament and taught them to others because Hermione, bless her bullied his into starting a defense club. With Voldemort out there literally out for his blood, he wastes his entire 6th year controlling the 'Monster in his chest'.

He then spends his entire time in the forest and the Grimmauld place sleeping and lazing around, instead of planning or learning how to survive. I know the skill he would gain would be no match against Voldemort, but at least would help Harry against an average DE.

Even in the heat of battle, all Harry uses are a 'stupefy' ,an 'expelliarmus' and a 'protego'. The most damaging spell he uses is a 'reducto'. *snort*.

And yes, even I face palmed when Harry thought about the safety of terrorists out to kill him. *sneer*.

 

Harry is an extremely brave person, whoever he's also lazy,mediocre and is afflicted with an intermittent survival instinct. And there's no justification for his behavior. No sane human being acts the way he does when an enemy so powerful is trying to kill him. He doesn't ever think:"Voldemort is leagues ahead of me, I might as well party" or "I better learn something in case I need it" he just floats around with no self-awareness. Hell, he even accepts that EVERYONE ELSE should learn DADA but he never tries to improve himself. It's baffling,

 

And is it just me, or do Harry's capabilities go down in HBP and DH relative to earlier? Hell, Harry seems to lose his ability to cast non-verbally or apparate on his own in DH, so he's even weaker then than in HBP. Also, I can't be the only person who's disappointed that nothing came of Snape's telling Harry to shut his mouth and close his mind. I mean, it did seem like Harry would eventually try taking that criticism to heart, but no, nothing. That was a waste, regardless of whether or not you think we should have seen Harry train himself more.

 

To be fair Harry did eventually learn to close his mind when he felt Voldemort's emotions during the battle of Hogwarts but was able to shut him out. Also, Harry's not going to take criticism from Snape to heart when, at this time, he thought he'd murdered Dumbledore. I'd imagine when he thought about it afterwards he was thinking how much he hates Snape rather than ''I know he's a murderer but he has a point.''

Also I think people underestimate the value of what Harry learnt in Deathly Hallows and overestimate how much free time he had.

He spent a lot of time thinking about Horcruxes, where they might be and how to destroy them. People assume that there was a lot of free time during the Horcrux hunt because they weren't making a lot of progress but to me it came across as though they were thinking and talking about the Horcruxes 24/7. They were frustrated with each other because they kept having the same conversations over and over but weren't making any progress but that doesn't mean they weren't working on it.

Also, things like the Resurrection Stone - it comes across as if he just worked it out instantly but it actually comes from a lot of thinking about it and a lot of different conversations (With Scrimgeour, When he put it in his mouth and when he guessed the resurrection stone might be in it). The same with the Sword of Gryffindor. And with Bellatrixes vault. He was able to piece together all the clues and ideas because he'd spent a lot of time on them e.g. maybe other Death Eaters were entrusted with Horcruxes, which ones were likely, etc. While this may all seem very obvious Bellatrixes reaction when she thought her vault had been broken into didn't necessarily mean there was a Horcrux there. She may have just been upset about the sword. We know it wasn't glaringly obvious because Ron and Hermione didn't know anything about it until the conversation with Griphook at Shell Cottage. So even though it was just a guess that the Horcrux was in her vault it was an educated guess based on a lot of thought. Or at least that's my impression of it. Also because he had looked at the memories of a young Tom Riddle with Dumbledore he understood Voldemort and that he and Voldemort were a lot alike, so he understood that Gringotts may be significant to Voldemort as a reminder of his first trip to Diagon Alley in the same way it was for him.

There was also a lot of planning for the Ministry and Gringotts raids along with constantly moving, setting up and taking down wards, sorting they're food, etc. and that all took up time. So, taking all that into account, it's not surprising that they didn't spend they're time learning curses or whatever because what they were learning was far more important to Voldemort's defeat.

A lot of people say that he only defeated Voldemort by sheer luck but I think that's rubbish. I mean it wasn't a solid plan and a lot of it could have gone wrong but he had a lot of advantages over Voldemort the most important of which being his knowledge of the Deathly Hallows and especially the Elder Wand. I think the most important thing Harry learnt over the course of Deathly Hallows is Wandlore. He gains an understanding of wandlore, which Ollivander calls ''a complex and mysterious branch of magic,'' one that even Hermione doesn't understand when I think she says something like ''The Wand is only as good as The Wizard.'' Harry understood that it's ''the wand that chooses the wizard'' and how The Deathstick didn't necessarily have to be passed on through death, just defeat. He also understood his Mother's sacrifice better and his own sacrifice and choices and how these choices gave him power and protected the people around him.

The power ''he knew not'' was his willingness to die in order to save everyone and Harry understood that his choices gave him a power over Voldemort that he could never understand.

tl;dr Harry learnt the magics that are less definable but more instinctual and ultimately more impressive and powerful than anything he could have learnt from a book.

 

He did learn all of that, but even with them relocating, finding food, taking down and putting up wards, it was still literally months of camping. There would have more than enough time to discuss other things besides horcruxes.

 

It's not about us disliking a "better" Harry Potter. What I am concern about is whether making HP more "awesome" and "badass" actually improve the story.

After all, there are so many stories rejected by the DLP community because those authors turn Harry Potter into some unstoppable killing machine, hence making the story extremely boring.

I have to wonder if it was a deliberate attempt by Rowling to avoid turning Harry Potter into a more powerful fighter.

It seems to me that one of the themes Rowling wanted to convey throughout the 7 books is a person worshipped by everyone as a saviour might turn out to be a run-of-the-mill person.

 

He spent time talking about Horcruxes? They'd burn out on that topic in a week. THey were there for like 6 months to a year. They could of learned a lot in that time but they didn't. How do you destroy them? Lol fiendfyre and basilisk venom. Or if want to go fanon, either the killing curse or a nice big sex orgy with your harem.

I don't even know why they were fucking camping, they could of just lived in some random muggle suburb. They just had to go off the grid magically. They were running from death eaters, not satellites and credit card traces.

Canon Harry does absolutely fuck all to improve himself. Hermoine shows exactly how a muggleborn (or anyone from DLP) would act upon being a wizard. They'd guzzle bits of information about magic like Vash guzzles semen.

Even at the end, you say he understood the esoteric senseless magic? He went to fucking die. He didn't know he'd live, and neither did Dumbledore. At the end he just thought he was getting rid of a Horcrux and that someone would kill Voldemort. He totally fucking lucked out (a typical pattern for Harry. Get into dangerous situation that would kill everyone but Dumbledore, make a ton of mistakes, still not die.)

For me the biggest facepalm moment of how stupid Harry is in the entire series, is the chamber of secrets. He shows up to rescue Ginny, and finds A FUCKING STRANGE PERSON IN THE CHAMBER. Is he suspicious of this person, who is in THE CHAMBER OF FUCKING SECRETS that only Voldemort knew about for 800 years or w/e. No he's fucking not, he asks him to help Ginny. When it turns out it's a bad guy (shocker). Oh look, Harry DROPPED HIS WAND EARLIER. How the fuck do you drop your wand someplace when your in that kind of a situation.

The reason people like Harry to be super or smart, is because he was so mind numbingly terrible in canon. I want to wring his fucking neck everytime he yells at Umbridge. It's not hard to just shut the fuck up. She's clealry an ignorant twat, so is Snape. Just ignore them.


and yes, Harry is a pussy. Not in the classical coward sense of the word, but in that he bends over and takes shit from pretty much anyone. THe only time's he fights back are when the other person actually WANTS him to argue back, so they can take advantage. *cough* *umbridge and snape* *cough*.

He's not articulate. He doesn't really respect authority. He's brash. He'd be terrible for Slytherin, not sure why the hat ever thought he'd be good there. (although considering what we see of actual canon slytherins; A bunch of mouthy cunts who aren't very bright and show a distinct lack of skill. Then he'd fit right in). He's not terribly bright, although he's not stupid. His biggest flaw is of course his fucking laziness.

His upside? Oh he understands love and choices. What. The. Fuck. This is from someone who has ZERO clue what love is. Parents love? Never felt it. But don't worry I understand the magic behind it. trololol. Finds friends of his parents? Lupin? Totally forget about him once he's no long a teacher. Never ask him or teachers about your parents. Sirius? Spends a few weeks with him and a couple letters exchanged? Sorry but they weren't that close. Girlfriends? Lolol monster in chest, clearly love. I find the power of love to be completely laughable in Harry's case.

Fuck I hate Harry Potter. It's why i like the fanfiction so much. So you can make him less of a twat.

 

Nice rant, pointless, though. Yes, he went to die...to sacrifice himself for the people he cared about, people I would dare say he loved. I doubt you or I could make the same decision.

Have you ever disliked someone so much you might hate them? I have in a work environment, and trust me when your blood's pounding in your ears it's really hard to 'shut the fuck up', especially when they are taunting you. Add him being fifteen, and well, hotheaded, and he was in-character.

The rest of your rant is problems with the narrative itself, which has been rehashed countlessly.

As to the thread's question. Why awesome Harry? So he can do things in Canon that I imagine would be cool, but for me that's usually not enough. I want some depth behind the ass-beatings. Thus, most fics I read like that are guilty-pleasures while I really enjoyed Wastelands and Shezza's Trilogy.

 

My counterpoint was that he didn't have an understanding of protection magic or love. He just got lucky that it killed Voldemort. I never really buy the "he's not good at normal magic, but he is at the secret weird magic"

I dunno. I have really thick skin when it comes to stuff like that. I don't really get upset over people, and I'm really good at ignoring shit like that. But apparently it's hella common for other people, cuz I see people yelling about stupid shit on TV in stupid arguments all the time.

edit: But really the problem I have with him opening his mouth is that he does it to ANYONE who doesn't agree with him. Malfoy, Snape, Umbridge, Scrimmy, Random DA tards like Zacharias. He's often portrayed as rather polite, but he isn't all that nice to people who aren't his friends.

and yeah, I like some depth in my competant harry too. But I find myself having alot more trouble reading inept Harry stories, where he just isn't that good at magic. He was average in canon, having him be the cream of the crop is probably my favorite aspect of fanfiction outside of Fleur lol.

 

Harry had the potential to be good if he applied himself. We see that in POA where he masters the patronus charm. The biggest fails in JKR's series are the angst in OOTP, the 'monster in chest' in HBP and the "Expelliarmus" argument in DH.

Harry was with Ginny for what, 3-4 months and suddenly, he feels the angst as if he were missing his soul mate in DH.

I facepalmed again when Harry crouched down to speak to his son "Albus Severus Potter". Seriously, wtf??

Harry Potter just took trolling to the next level. *sneer*

Oh and yeah @Russano. Fleur Delacour rocks. That would be the ideal pairing for Harry if he wasn't such a pussy.

 

@Russano I mostly agree with you that canon Harry does fuck all to improve himself but my point was that I think you and most people underestimate the amount of work he put in in Deathly Hallows. You say that

but Hermione couldn't have beaten Voldemort. She basically represents the peak of what Harry could be if he applied himself (if only in terms of knowledge and not execution) because she has acted how everyone here would act by learning as much as possible for seven years, but she still wasn't good enough. Maybe it was all down to circumstance and luck but I like to think there was at least some amount of skill (if that's the right word) involved in Harry winning. Maybe that's just me trying to reason why Harry is so useless after the Patronus and preparation for the Triwizard and sure I would have liked to have seen him learn this type of magic in the last two books but it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference. I like Harry in Deathly Hallows because to me he does seem badass. You clearly disagree and so do most people at dlp. Hell even I disagree with myself half the time.

When I say he understood the subtler magics I didn't mean when he went to die I meant in his duel (if you can call it that) with Voldemort. He gives a Badass speech about the prophecy, Horcruxes, His mother's sacrifice, his own sacrifice and about Snape and there mastery of the Elder wand. This is mainly what I'm basing my argument that Harry learnt a lot in DH on and maybe it's flimsy.

This is one of my pet peeves of fanon. That Harry Potter of all people doesn't know what love is is bullshit. Harry has definitely felt parents love. His mother died so he could live. She purposefully chose to die and that's the choice Harry understands when he does the same thing. There is no other reason that Harry would have walked to his death other than out of love. Harry loved his friends and the Weasleys. I think the two most important relationships that show that Harry knows what love is are his relationships with Dumbledore and the Dursleys. He was able to forgive Dumbledore because he loved him and to a certain extent the Dursleys. Even after everything he was able to forgive them and the only reason he had to do this was out of love. I wouldn't have been able to forgive them and thats why it stuck out to me as such a loving act. Maybe that's not love but some sort of victim complex, I dunno but out of all of Harry Potter books the thing that came across strongest to me is that Harry is very loving and how that makes him strong.


Looking back on this post and the last I think I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing because I love when Harry is made more awesome in fics and I don't think Harry lived up to his earlier potential. And on the point of the thread, Making Harry more awesome is cool because it lets you explore different types of magic. It also makes it more believable for him to be dating Fleur or Tonks if he's a Badass.

 

I agree Hermoine does kind of represent that. If you combined her theoretical knowledge with his practical application, and a bit more hard work, I feel like you could make a case for him being able to beat Voldemort. Especially with the canon magic fighting system. My problem is Harry doesn't even TRY that. Not tried and failed, went to power of love. Just skipped that crap and went to the deus ex machina.

They spent like the whole year camping. I really don't feel they used their time well at all. I woulda just went to a nice muggle hotel somewhere and magic-raped the muggles into letting you stay around and hang out. THe whole camping thing really bothered me.

I agree, the fanon not knowing what love is thing is terrible. I more have a problem with Rowlings execution. If he sorta developed the love thing over time it would of worked alot better. But the 1st book starts out with Dumbledor going herpderp you have the power of love! Even though, the kid Harry had no friends growing up and no discernable affection ever given to him.

But you obviously can't go make a young adult novel series where your protagonist is an emotionally stunted psycothpath rapist because his family locked him in his closet as a kid. (That's what DLP is for.)

I feel like Harry's,I guess examples for lack of a better term, of love aren't as strong as other characters. For example The whole Neville and his mother thing was really sweet and it seemed like that kind happening would of better illustrated the power of love in the books.

Harry never struck me as especially filled with love.

Plus the mother's protection thing was filled with inconsitencies throughout the series which really undercut the final battle IMO.

 

The biggest issue is that the seven part series is too long for what actually happened. Cut it into six years, start at age of twelve, and squeeze HBP and DH into one year: angst and romance in autumn, kill Dumbledore and seize the ministry before Christmas and do camping over spring.

The "war" lasting for as long as it did just makes no sense at all and makes all factions in the conflict look like utterly incompetent idiots, Harry included.

I mean, Hitler conquered the mainland Europe in nine months and had time to take a five month breather between Poland and Denmark, Voldemort needs two years to overthrow a government that's already in the pockets of his lieutenants.