Not a bad idea, but most people don't have a very accurate self-image.

 

Weird thought- what effect does the horcrux in Harry's scar have on the polyjuice potion when everyone turned into him during book 7? Did it just look like the scar or were they all polyjuiced into being slightly Voldemort?

And yeah, our self image is nothing like reality. The most obvious example is our voices- they sound nothing like they do to ourselves and just about everyone finds their voice sounds odd.

 

Taure didn't mean to say that you change into someone's self-image literaly. Just something of a stock version of the one you take hair for polyjuice from. Without the damage that is superficial, but with the wounds of old and all that.


Anyways, drinking Harry flavored polyjuice wouldn't make anybody have Voldemort's soul. It changes only appearance. And the scar is something that is included in Harry's 'image' you get when using polyjuice.

 

So I guess this is a question that belongs in this thread, but what are the other, larger ones?

 

Voldemort's resurrection hinges on Harry Potter successfully winning a tournament and touching a Portkey. Mad-Eye Moody has ample opportunity to successfully have Harry Potter extracted from Hogwarts on numerous occasions. He even has the opportunity to get Harry off of Hogwarts grounds (Three Broomsticks, notices him under an invisibility cloak).

Harry doesn't have to participate in the tournament for this plan to work. All he has to do is be removed from Hogwarts to the graveyard. If the Portkey sufficiently works in the maze, it can sufficiently work whenever Harry Potter attends an event. It's the height of plot holes. Why tip your hand by placing Harry on guard by registering him in a tournament, why go through the trouble of having him win the tournament when all of that can be side-stepped with a simple portkey.

Anyone who wants to point out that the date is important is being silly. Wasn't stated and isn't. Doesn't make tournament necessary.

During the Parting of the Ways, Dumbledore fails to convince Minister Fudge Voldemort has returned. All he has to do is take Fudge, grab Harry, have Harry provide the memory into a Pensieve and show it to Minister Fudge. Order of the Phoenix doesn't happen.

Until retconned, how did Voldemort get his wand back? (Rowling retcons and says Peter Pettigrew went to the Potter house the evening of the attack. Which is exactly where I would think Pettigrew would be on the night he betrayed his friends... Nevermind the missing 24 hours of October 31-November 1 are still outstanding as a plot hole she admits she hasn't figured out)

Until retconned, James came out of the wand before Lily.

The Killing Curse is moved from being this really amazing spell that is literally lights out to a spell that has degrees of effectiveness based on whether the user is successful (nosebleed discussion scene) and puts "a bit of power" behind it. This makes Harry's survival less cool than what it should be. If a Killing Curse can be cast improperly due to potentially being unversed or failing to "put a bit of power" behind it and can only inflict a nosebleed then it isn't what it's cracked up to be. The Boy-Who-Lived isn't so special anymore. Voldemort might've just flubbed the spell.

It needs to be an either/or. If you successfully cast it, it is the Killing Curse and it kills. If you cannot, then it doesn't fire. Your wand produces nothing. Anything else introduces a plothole based on communication. (Also regarding blocking it, as Harry successfully blocks it utilizing the newly invented Brother wand syndrome that permits his relatively shitty disarming spell to interact with it).

This is just off the top of my head but there's a shitload more.

Edit: Thestrals after Cedric Diggory's death.

 

I knew about a lot of these, but to see and have them listed somewhere with such brutal efficiency is nice.

I thought it strange that Fudge never faced any repercussions for having a detained Crouch Jr. kissed before he could even be questioned.

He might have refused the Penseive flat out, as we know that memories can be tampered with. And there's a good chance Dumbledore could do a damn sight better than Slughorn with that.

She later retconned the Cedric/Thestral thing as well.

EDIT: And, speaking of simpler solutions: Harry summons his toad back to him in fifth year and managed to get a broom out of the castle and to the field for a tournament, so could Sirius have solved all his problems with Accio Rat?

Would Animagi be resistant to that even in animal form? Hmm, perhaps acceptable as a distinction between animals and animagi.

 

We all have seen the explanations for these holes in canon, but I'd still like to point out a few that I like and some that are somewhat from my perspective.

First, if Voldemort was a good villain, I'd believe that the Tournament bit was a game. More like "Barty, I need you to spy at Hogwarts, if you have a chance, do sign Harry into the tournament - that should be fun."

The trouble from stealing Harry can be explained by add fear factor, as in, he is stolen from the centre of everyone's attention. That requires Voldemort to be a smart villain, too.

I also subscribe to the school of thought that says the Headmaster is able to make portkeys in and out of Hogwarts and no one else, and Moody just fiddled with the destination a bit. That's why Harry could return by touching it again.



A new(?) one for the killing curse - Barty lied. If someone casts the killing curse, someone dies. That - would have been a good joke to pull on Dumbledore's students, and theoretically you could claim that he knew that no one would have the balls to try the taboo spell.



But yeah, plotholes, plotholes everywhere.

 

I've seen the whole Triwizard tournament scheme labelled a plothole before and while people are correct to say it is hardly an optimal way to gain resurrection if you place yourself in Voldemort's shoes, I am not sure that it strictly qualifies as one.

I have always considered the Triwizard plot as being one big example of Voldemort's MO. Voldemort is obsessed with symbology and appearances and motivated by driving obsessions. Narcissism and inferiority complexes with regards to Dumbledore and ancestry are big factors in how he operates throughout the novels.

The point isn't just being effective and getting resurrected it is to show his power and superiority. Subverting the entire tournament which is hosted in the base of Dumbledore's power is demonstration. It is a way of demonstrating his return in a spectacular, morale shattering way. This also explains the two way portkey that I have heard mentioned as a plothole. It is simply a form of arrogance that leads him to believe Harry would never get the chance to use the portkey. But rather that the Harry's body could be returned with the portkey.

 

You know what is spectacular and morale shatterring? Every capable wand user on the enemy's side dies on the same day. End of story. Both Voldemort and Dumbledore were capable of doing it for decades, and didn't do it for the same reason pureblood children from Hogsmeade, since time immemorial, have been taking a full day every term to travel to Hogwarts on a recently invented muggle contraption.

 

Are you saying that Voldemort potentially chose the ridiculously baroque and tortuous plan to nab Harry by forcing him into the Tournament (making it a very likely possibility he wouldn't even live to arrive in the graveyard, hints from Moody or no), because snatching Harry right out from under everyone's noses during a prominent event would instill more fear in the populace?

Doesn't that sort of run counter to Voldemort's desire for his return to go unnoticed? Even if people don't think it's Voldemort who was responsible, creating more fear in the populace could, conceivably (...well, in a government that wasn't run by total shit-heels) result in things like increased auror activity and the various law enforcement departments stepping up preparations to fight 'whoever ', which is the opposite of what Voldemort wanted.

Edit: Harry's possible death, after Voldemort's resurrection, wasn't a requirement of the ritual, either, it was just something Voldemort planned to do to save face in front of his peons, so it's likely Harry's body wouldn't have shown back up anywhere, either... he'd have just vanished from the maze and everyone would have been left scratching their heads, before the majority of the herd chalked it up to a quirk of magic, rather than some mysterious murder.

Probably would have been pinned on a Skrewt, and Hagrid could have taken his third and final trip to Azkaban, for being both negligent and a halfbreed at the same time... which is totally not allowed.

Voldemort could have always played the "I killed your savior and here's the body to prove it." card later, after he was ready to reveal his return to the general populace.

The only reason for Voldemort's needlessly complex plan was that the plot had to be as thick as the previous two, put together, and "Crouch!Moody keeps Harry after class, stuns him, puts him in the trunk-dungeon with real!Moody, then beats a hasty retreat" wouldn't have gotten the job done.

 

Was that always truly Voldemort's intention though? I always assumed his desire to go unnoticed was due to his fears concerning Harry. And that he wished to go unnoticed until he could learn of how things stood with regards to the prophecy. If Harry was dead then the prophecy is nullified/fulfilled and Voldemort has no need for secrecy. Harry surviving once more in the graveyard turned Voldemort into believing that it was something more than just luck and chance on Harry' side.

Yeah Harry's death wasn't a necessary part of the ritual but surely he planned to kill Harry once resurrected. I mean that must have been the plan. Nor do I see why Voldemort would have Harry just vanish. I mean there is no canon evidence either way but when has Voldemort ever been averse to claiming credit, he is nothing if not boastful. If Harry was killed then the body was going back and Voldemort was claiming credit. The whole point being that Voldemort could kill Harry. Righting the perceived wrong of him not being able to kill Harry previously. That is why he summoned the Death Eaters to show them his killing. Equally he would send the body back to show people that he had killed Harry.

 

It's a plothole. Plotholes are pretty commonly accepted to include unlikely events. When a bunch of illogical things stack up, the bigger a plot hole it becomes. As for Voldemort's MO, it is all over the place because he's a pretty sketchy antagonist who's seldom shown to be competent. We're told he's a pretty bad dude and we seldom experience it.

You mention in your third paragraph that it isn't just enough to be resurrected; yet we know from our very first interaction with Lord Voldemort (though we don't know it at the time) that he's willing to commit sacrilege and risk a cursed life by drinking unicorn blood. He does what's necessary. Furthermore, he's willing to return to his body piggy-backing through possession and utilizing what he views to be an inferior means of immortality (the Philosopher's Stone).

Between 1981 and his return to his body, he's pretty desperate. If he's logical enough to rely on unicorn blood to subsist and willing to use the Philosopher's Stone by brute forcing to it without any symbolism in sight, we can presume he'd be pretty logical in returning to his body.

It's really a stupid discussion to try to get into the character's head. We can pretend Voldemort is striving for symbolism by relying on a Death Eater to successfully shepherd a student through a tournament that, when last ran, killed two people. That he's really trying to stick it to Dumbledore. That he's really that egotistical or w/e. But it only adds to him being a shitty antagonist (which he is). It also remains a stupid scheme when all that he needs to do is have Crouch slip Harry a Portkey at the right time.

Lastly, Voldemort doesn't want to be revealed. He doesn't want anyone other than his Death Eaters to know he's returned. This is one of the larger issues that flies in the face of his scheme. He enrolls a celebrity into a tournament, generating questions among the very people he's hoping to fly under the radar of (namely the only person he fears). Avoiding the tournament again avoids this issue. We know this to be the case since Voldemort stays out of the limelight even when the Ministry is overthrown. He's a "in the shadows" sort of antagonist. His symbolism doesn't include alerting everyone (and again, that everyone doesn't immediately believe he's back is another plot hole) to his reemergence.

It feels dumb just analyzing this. It's a stupid, major fucking plothole.

 

You're right Merrill, but it's fun. That's the beauty I find with these series: the books are shit, the author is mediocre, but it gives intelligent and talented people the possibility to discuss, theorize and write about the Wizarding World.

 

The 'Plan' is, potentially, not that baroque.

1. Plant a spy (easy as pie and done)
2. (optional) Put Harry into tournament, even if for shit and giggles (done). Benefits - Harry is tied in one place. He has a potential to bleed for spare blood if that works for the ritual. Probably the contract can serve as a bonus too - 'helping' Harry break it would have had consequences that were implied but never stated.
3. Look if Potter survives. If he dies - profit. If he lives, move on with the plan.
During this part, Barty just nudges Harry to win, to easier place him.* (Potter survived)
4. With the excuse of heightened security and his disguise's paranoia fake Moody can place the modified portkey.
If Harry doesn't win - just nab him in the confusion where a champion is gone. If that is the case - he is injured, and Moody going to look after him wouldn't be as suspicious as stealing him in the middle of the caste. Probably rushing him far enough in the forest to porkey away with a non-headmaster one. Yes, that potentially breaks Moody's cover, but what can you do.
If Harry wins - profit.
5. Harry never arrives back, and if fake Moody didn't reveal himself - Voldemort has a loyal servant right in the middle of the Order of Phoenix as Dumbledore prepares for the worst.


*one could even argue, that Voldemort never asked for Barty to make Harry win. It's what a fanatic could do, trying to interpret the part about putting Harry into the tournament, especially if Voldemort mentioned that using the cup would be good.

If there's possibility of using the bood of the dead Harry Potter in the eventuality where he dies in the tournament in the ritual all the better.



What am I going for, here, is this:

Plans are not something you just make to work. Things will go wrong. If you expect everything to go as planned, your megalomania isn't a good enough excuse for your stupidity.
Plans have to be flexible. Objectives, priorities, that sort of thing.

Voldemort's best outcome was this:
Harry is Dead, Voldemort is Back, fake Moody is in the Order

His plan didn't have to be needlessly complicated for that, just proper instructions to use the possible outcomes. Harry reaching the cup was the best one, I guess.

He obviously didn't plan for each of the tasks, nor he had an idea how Barty should do the helping. And all Barty did was throw in a word or two - not that that significant, except for the book. Which too, wasn't one bit hard for him to pull of. Thus - a minimum effort, low risk high yield actions.

Stealing Harry from any place puts suspicion on fake Moody. Then again, were there a chance to take him without suspicion, Barty would potentially have taken it that very second.

Especially if it would make Harry miss some task and the 'contract' does something bad to him.

Yes, if we opperate on the widely used assumption that any portkeys work in the middle of Hogwarts, Barty should have just given Harry a porkey coin or something. At some point where he has least possible suspitions, but that would have been a valid plan.
There is no evidence to disprove the claim that that was a valid option, just that Barty never had a chance where the kidnapping wouldn't have been traced to him.
Also, he might have needed to alert Pettegrew to put the cauldron on the fire, or something, for a better timing. And improved taste.



Another point to consider is that Voldemort, in a sarcastic way of giving a prize, could have used whatever champion for the resurrection, if Harry died along the way.

Either that, or, Harry gone puts ministry on search, maybe chalking it up on an accident, but all in all, gives him time to prepare.
And then, by revealing himself, Voldemort can play the dead Harry card, thus hitting morale rather severely.



But yeah, I don't think Rowling though this out that much. It's just a plothole in any case.
Analysing it does help to use some of the angles in the fics, but doesn't chance the whole stupid idea angle.
Personally, I used the backup portkey in FFF.


tl;dr Plans work in interesting ways - improvising can make a plan look a lot more complicated than it really is - ask yourself this - if some parts of the plot go differently, could Barty still deliver Harry to Voldemort? If the answer is yes, you can claim that the plan is slow, but you can't say that it doesn't work - because that 'yes' is for backup.

 

My, my someone has quite the opinion about their ability. Yes, some of the books were shit, mostly due to gaping plotholes and such, but to suggest Rowling is mediocre is bad, and you should feel bad

 

This, sort of at least. The ritual wasn't designed specifically with Harry in mind, as far as I'm aware. Obviously, there were added benefits to getting Harry's blood, but at the end of the day, if say, Cedric had grabbed the Cup by himself, then Voldemort would have ended up with the blood of the best wizard of their generation, which is not to be sneezed at. If you think of the Tournament as an audition process where one of the interviewers is nudging their preferred candidate along, it makes a little more sense.

 

I always just assumed that Barty went a bit nuts after a decade under the Imperius. Voldemort orders him to capture Harry, Barty does it in the manner he thinks is best, i.e. entering him in the Triwizard Tournament. Go figure.

 

I don't get that impression at all from the bits of Voldemort's dialogue that we see through Harry, where he refers to a loyal follower. It really seems like Barty is following Voldemort's plan.

 

I think you missed part of my post.

 

From what we say from canon, Lord Voldemort always had a flair for the dramatic. Maybe he wanted his rebirth to be at the end of the 'grand' tournament and killing off Harry Potter under Dumbledore's nose would not only strike fear in the hearts of the Order, but also promote fear within the foreign delegations.

Oh and @Henry Persico, you really should feel bad.