Here's how I see it:

Uchiha Time Bomb + Tobirama's Hardass Attitude = Isolation

Something you have to understand is that almost all of the Uchiha we've heard more than two words on (and some we haven't) have had the Mangekyou Sharingan. Sasuke, Itachi, Shisui, Madara, Izuna, and Obito. And besides them we've been introduced to who? Sasuke's parents and Madara's dad?

Time might tell, but I don't see it as being farfetched for several other Uchiha during Madara and Hashirama's time to have unlocked the MS (especially considering how abstract the "kill your best friend" requirement has become). Tobirama sees this, sees how powerful Madara became and how he defected from the village, and makes the logical decision.

Uchiha Time Bomb + Isolation = Konoha's Safety

Sure, they faced discrimination because of it, but it's not like Tobirama threw 'em to the outskirts and told them to fuck off. He gave them a clan-wide job and left regular shinobi work open to them as well. Not exactly ideal for the civilian Uchiha (if there even were any), but you can't have everything. Sacrifices have to be made somewhere.

 

To be honest, Dr, the only one whose logic I can follow is Madara. From my perspective:

"I sweat, bled, and killed for this clan to eat and have a place to live. I sacrificed my person dream for the future (peace with the Senju) and eventually took my own brother's eyes so I would be more fit to lead the clan. And then you all went behind my back and not only made peace with the Senju (which I wanted in the first place!), but decided to elect him as the grand leader of our alliance."

 

The problem is that you're assuming the Uchiha are a time bomb. Both Shisui and Itachi remained loyal to the village after gaining the MS.

Tobirama was plotting against the Uchiha before Madara defected from the village. In fact Madara defected as a result of Tobirama's plotting. Because of that Tobirama logically shouldn't be using Madara as an example of how unstable the Uchiha are.

I don't think Madara really cared about Hashirama becoming the Hokage. He was worried about Tobirama succeeding him and because he didn't trust Tobirama with power over his clan.

 

Ready yourselves, the "Tobirama isn't such a bitch about the Uchiha 'point of divergence' fics."

 

Uhm. Yeah why would Tobirama succeed Hashirama? By the time Hashirama died of old age, Tobirama would be close to that age as well.

The real idea here is, if Madara never defected and Hashirama lived, what would Konoha be like given the second Hokage would be Hiruzen trained by Hashirama (instead of Tobirama) and for more of his life (Hiruzen became Hokage at like, 13). We see that Hashirama would have tempered Tobirama's influence on village politics, so what would be different?

 

I have no idea why they were discussing the possibility like Hashirama dying young was certain. They clearly were though. Hashirama thought Madara would succeed him and he's even older than Tobirama.

Would Hiruzen even become Hokage in that scenario? Hashirama could probably lead for decades. I wouldn't be surprised if he could have handed the hat straight to Minato seeing as Madara lived that long on Hashirama's cells. Then you'd likely have Uchiha trained by Madara who would be in the running as well.

 

Eh, keep in mind the state that Madara was in at that point. Hooked up to a Juubi corpse IV and still on death's door. Not exactly much teaching he could do in that state. I think it' likely go from Hashirama to an older, more experienced Hiruzen.

 

Mainly because of damage he sustained from fighting Hashirama. Obviously Madara's students would be trained before Madara is old as dirt. Perhaps a rival for Hiruzen.

 

Well, among other things they are coming out of what seemed to be a pretty brutal clan war. It's possible neither of them honestly realized the full implications of not dying young wrt how old Hashirama would be before he died.

That said, even aside from lifespan we are talking about a general succession-based discussion. Neither of the two have any idea about who Hiruzen is going to be at this point, so the talk is about who would succeed Hashirama if something were to happen to him. Based on Madara's assessment of the situation, it would be Tobirama - which also means Tobirama has more influence than him at this point. He could wait and see how the situation develops, but he's just been frustrated on so many levels - by the village, by his clan - that he snaps. Even if he were to stay here and train students in a bid to ensure the Hokage's hat for them, if the village would pick Tobirama over him now who's to say they wouldn't pick Tobirama's students over his?

 

I think Hiruzen is brought up because he seems talented enough that he's not going to stay off the stage for who Hashirama wants to pass the hat to.

Tobirama is favored over Madara because Madara got a bad rep when going all total war against the Senju. After serving Konoha for decades any stigma around him would be gone imo. I also think it'll come down to character more than who their sensei is in such a situation. Also Hashirama is likely to have students as well in this situation.

 

Right they don't know about Hiruzen, but they both also know that the only competition in the entire world for the Senju is the Uchiha, so if Madara didn't decide to throw down with Hashirama, there seems to be no one else in the world that could put him down. In which case, why is succession even brought up? I always thought Madara defected over the clan's treatment and the fact he wasn't picked, not a long-term assessment on the logical conclusion of the results of the clan's treatment over the next 60 years.

I'm not sure who is scarier though, Madara! Hiruzen or Hashirama! Hiruzen. We know Hashirama and Tobirama just had the one specialty (Mokuton and Suiton) but Madara could have copied techniques from all different kinds of elements and passed them on.

Madara! Danzou vs Hashirama! Hiruzen would be a pretty difficult decision I think.

 

Maybe Hashirama has faith that he won't hijack the system(which would probably destroy a good part of the village).

Well Mokuton is a mixture of Doton and Suiton and Yamato was decent with them both so I think it's safe to assume that Hashirama is competent with Doton as well. He's also a sage so there's that too. Madara's katon jutsu all seem to be clan jutsu or variations of them so he would probably hold back teaching them to Hiruzen.

Madara trained Uchiha could potentially have bijuu as battle summons. Who needs jinchūriki?

 

The point of training someone outside the clan would be that you could get someone who was Hokage who had he same views as you. You wouldn't get them to that level by holding them back and not teaching them any powerful techniques (unless you help them make their own).

 

From conservation of ninjutsu alone Madara had to leave. If Madara had stayed and taught (insert older ninjas here; Danzou & Co.) then we would have this super powered team that was trained by a Hokage contender. Now imagine if Danzou got a team of three when he was Hiruzen's age and they got to the level of Hiruzen's team through the power of rivalry (yay Kishi). We would have two Sannin level teams (before the whole defection and ruined lives thing) and holy motherfucking God nothing could stand in their way.

Honestly that would make a great AU with Konoha trying to take over the other four countries and how that would change everything.

 

10charfiller

 

New chapter.

 

Oh good, is the flashback sequence finally over?
Don't get me wrong, some of it was interesting backstory but I feel like it ran a chapter or two too long.

 

Seems to be, yeah. This is when things get...stupid. Seeing as we're dealing with Sasuke here, it's about to get really fucking stupid. Again.

Well, either that or we'll see how the fight against Obito/Madara/Juubi's going for a few chapters.

 

I just love that panel

Spoiler

in which Madara gets stabbed from behind

It's glorious.

 

Can't really disagree since he was a huge bag of insane dicks at that point.