Well, yeah. I genuinely thought they were my best bet at scum, primarily because of the way Castiel played and how Rubicon reacted to him, until Bill's post on Day 3 tilted the balance in that favour.

I've said it before, but I don't see these votes as particularly conclusive because they weren't all that much of a push - Bill voted Rubicon to get him to talk, then rescinded as soon as he said something no matter the meat of the post. Bill's day 1 vote on Kalas was equally devoid of substance or pressure, and the same for Kalas' vote on Bill on Day 3, to a slightly lesser extent.

Presumably, Kalas means that if Rubicon is mafia, the proposed scumteam needs to have him in it.

I disagree with this premise. For one thing, Fontisian's vote on Castiel well predates any Rubicon bandwagon. For another, if Rubicon is Mafia, then it would be supremely stupid for scum to band together to defend him, for exactly this reason. This type of situation is what bussing was created for. And it's not even necessary at this point, because Rubicon had a secret weapon - the doctor claim. Once that was whipped out, any mafia would be free to switch away - except they didn't need to, since Stojil did. You tried to as well, but missed by just a little - as I've said, something that could easily have been staged thanks to Eido's timer(literally seconds left on the clock, and you pepper your vote switch with a complaint and a threat?). As such, I disagree with your Rubicon-mafia world - well, not entirely, it's just that your latest post makes you more agreeable on that scumteam, though Fontisian still pulls out ahead in that scenario.

As for the Rubicon-town world, well, I still like Sesc/Kalas. Again, I question the idea that Kalas 'led the lynch on Bill Door'. I think he just raised a name that others happened to run with. The Bill Door wagon was one vote by Kalas, and then three votes in six posts (the first two being within four hours of one another), so it's entirely possible Kalas came back to a wagon and had no grounds to rescind. I don't like Sesc's dismissing Kalas on (what I think is) weak reasoning. He hasn't really said much about Kalas all game (all I see is this, this and this which have no real content regarding him).

As odd as it is to say, I think Sesc/Fontisian might also be an option. Fontisian's flip would exonerate Sesc, while #350 ends up looking like a deliberate distancing (if not, lynch Kalas first, at which point it does). As such, we proceed to lynch me and then (since the game continues) Kalas, leaving two alive, with scum!Sesc one of them.

 

I'm saying that if Rubicon is mafia, I don't think your voting analysis and subsequent conclusion that all the scum would be in the Castiel wagon holds.

Probably my last post for the next 10-12 hours or so, possibly more.

 

Ah, sorry. Thought you were asking for a clarification of that post.

Honestly, I think there's too much that doesn't make sense if he is scum - where are the rest of the town power roles, for one. There are also reasonable explanations for why he is still alive, and all in all the positives in his ledger do outweigh the negatives. If I'm forced to pick one right now, then I'll say he isn't.

That said, I have listed him as one of my picks for scum, and I certainly don't agree that his roleclaim doesn't warrant suspicion, even at this stage. It's just that there are players out there who I find worse.

 

Why is it that only scummiest players are talking? Typhon, Prophylaxis, Rubicon and Kalas. Get in here.

I'm saying that if I were on a scumteam with Bill Door at the time I voted, I would have voted for Bill Door instead of Prophylaxis as it would have been the better play. In reality, I voted for Prophylaxis because he and Bill Door both looked scummy and because I wanted to see how people would react to that tied vote. Basically, I'm arguing that the spot I voted in was less scummy than your constant, irrelevant vote on Rubicon and Moridin's last minute switch.

And no, I don't think Prophylaxis is scum, as he was under so much pressure from Bill Door. My reads look more like this:

fontisian
Typhon
Prophylaxis
Rubicon
Kalas
Sesc
Moridin

You wanted to show Moridin that Moridin and I should still be lynched, even if Rubicon is scum. What?

Admittedly, Bill Door posted those reads before he came under any real pressure, so having one scum in there (hint: it's Moridin) and having the other two as null or slightly scummy reads (hello there Kalas and Sesc) seems reasonable.

I thought it was fairly self-evident.

Except I'm legitimately trying to start a lynch wagon here. Could you explain why I am more scummy than Moridin? To address the other people:

Propylaxis: Yes, the scenario is extremely unlikely and he is pretty close to town-firmed in my eyes.

Rubicon: All role stuff aside, Bill Door and Rubicon being against each other for most of the game makes Rubicon look pretty good. Of course, with the exception of Rubicon's Day 3 vote on Bill Door, their votes for each other weren't exactly weren't that likely to end in a lynch and Bill Door's jump off of Rubicon is suspect. They did both use some form of argument to justify their votes though, which is more than what Bill Door did when he voted for Kalas.

Kalas: A Day 1 vote on a scum buddy when there are already three other bandwagons is not very risky, especially when the Fen bandwagon could easily pick up steam. And really, Bill Door's accusation of "too many people buddying him" was so weak that the vote was unlikely to go anywhere. Kalas' vote on Bill Door on Day 3 looks a bit better, but you have to realize that is followed this post by Typhon:

I could see Kalas panicking and immediately trying to bus Bill Door.

Actually, I want to lynch Sesc after you. If only one of you two are scum, Kalas then becomes a nice option.

 

Yes, I'm here. Working on a response soon.

---------- Post automerged at 07:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

I'm more comfortable lynching Sesc than Moridin, however.

 

Mother of fuck. I'm sorry. No excuses can really cover it. That is all.

Lets get back in: I wanted to wait to see who would incriminate themselves. At the end of my read through, I think it's Sesc I want to rail on (sorry mate). In essence, he simply fits the best for a lynch here. Moridin is undoubtedly ahead of Kalas for my next vote, however, presuming nothing changes; it's looking like maybe I was right about him in the early game after all.

Vote: Sesc

---------- Post automerged at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

Note: just throwing up a short post to let you guys know I'm here. Real post coming, don't worry.

 

:facepalm Do I really need to spell this out?

I thought Castiel/Prophylaxis were scummy at the time. After Bill Door's flip, I re-evaluated the situation and found that they are close to townfirmed because Bill Door tried to get them lynched.

I admit, Moridin's lack of content concerning me is disturbing. Makes me feel like he's trying to drag me down with him. As for why I care, I think there's a very good chance that Moridin will flip scum and I'd rather not have to deal with a bandwagon on me afterwards.

I'm looking for that initial question, and I'm not finding it.

---------- Post automerged at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

Though, he did mention me here.

 

Rubicon: Start being useful. No contentful posts in around two Days is terrible.

I cannot summon the energy to reread this.

 

fontisian
Typhon
Prophylaxis
Rubicon
Kalas
Sesc
Moridin
[/QUOTE]

I actually am quite fond of this little list (although it appears fontisian and I are at odds in regards with who should die first). Ultimately, Sesc, I want you dead for a handful of reasons:

-you wasted at least half a day railing on Rubicon. I get it. We were nervous (are a bit nervous even now in my case, although the Bill Door scum flip alleviates much of that) too. But you needed to scum hunt: every read helps. Besides, the whole "Rubicon's still alive thing" is easily manufactured (as somebody said earlier) by just, you know, leaving Rubicon alive as a scum player. Hell, it's what I'd do. And if Bill Door had been town, it would have worked; I'd have been willing to lynch him at that point honestly, because that would've meant things had gone very wrong in my reads.

-the derp involving your scum teams. Fontisian/Moridin/Bill Door for both teams? Honestly, that makes me slightly less suspicious of Moridin, but it makes me feel like I've damn near scumfirmed you.

Additionally, there's the mislynch. That has actually thrown me off for a while. I almost feel as though it was legitimate, as much as I hated it then. Assuming Castiel/Prophylaxis is town, that is. And... I kinda do, for the sake of making it fit.

Bah, I don't know. I haven't like your play all the way through, essentially. If more people are dead set on lynching another target than you, I'd be willing to listen, but I like my chances of hitting scum in you.

 

@Typhon: Just making this clear, but what do you think of a scum!Kalas?

 

Fair enough.

I followed what fontisian said, although it is possible that I'm simply "drinking the Kool-Aid", so to speak. She split votes because it was equally likely to her that Castiel/Prophylaxis and Bill Door were scummy. I disagreed even then, but that /was/ before Prophylaxis started being useful. At that point, he seemed less scummy. Bill Door got the vote.

fontisian /did/ fail to cite an obvious argument earlier, and I /did/ notice. It kinda made me feel like she was grasping at straws a bit, I won't deny. And if you are town, font probably should die. But, in her defense, it was a particularly obvious argument. Not an exoneration, though; it should have been used. And you are making a few decent points, scattered about. Your record speaks against you, though.

As for Moridin, you talking so much about him is what makes him less scum. If I'm fucking up and you're town, then Moridin dies next.

 

Don't have much time, but just so I keep my pinky promise: Sesc's analysis strikes me as pretty good, actually, and I'm not happy that Prophylaxis (and to a lesser extent Typhon) are pushing to lynch him without really engaging with it. I'm less willing than Sesc seems to be to give Kalas the benefit of the doubt just for voting Bill Door, but I'd say lynch font and moridin (in either order), and then either Sesc or Kalas if the game's still on, depending on what we think at that point. I'm not fussed about which one comes first, but I say lynch one of Moridin / fontisian today, not Sesc.

---------- Post automerged at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------

Typhon is engaging, good.

 

Analysis good != town

 

And I was ninja'd and repeated font. Lovely.

Bah. To answer your question, Prophylaxis, it depends. I thought he was scum, and still count him in my top 3, contingent on scum!Sesc. But with Moridin in the picture... I honestly am unsure. I thought Kalas was probably our last scum, and the Bill Door thing didn't change my mind. At the same time, I hated the hammer post, even if Moridin provided justification. Further, there was a significant derp with calling font vanilla: whether Bill Door checked her and reported vanilla to the scum QT or it was just unhappy coincidence, but font had not revealed. In light of the Sesc attacks, I'd probably put Moridin at the back of the lynch list of:

Sesc
Kalas
Moridin

But I am curious to hear what others say and how the flip turns out before I commit to 2 days away. What are your feelings regard Kalas and Moridin?

---------- Post automerged at 11:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

The more I read it, the more I agree, actually, and I won't be hammered like last time again, so Unvote. For now. Still think you're the best scumspect, though.

This actually touches on another reason that was meant to land in the "why Sesc should die" list. Kalas/Sesc/Bill Door was the original Mason scum team. Admittedly, that was a long time ago, but one is confirmed, and the other two aren't really providing serious pressure to one another. Combined with how heavily Sesc is pushing Moridin, I like Kalas as scum #3, as I said above.

If Sesc isn't scum, then I get quite a bit more nervous; that means we have to narrow this thing to a perfect lynch list. Still, if nothing else, Sesc provides a more informative lynch than Kalas. Not terrifically more so than Moridin, though, and... Bah. I still wonder if he or font one isn't a third party.

 

Woah, easy there. Clearly I've managed to come across as an ass (or an idiot), and I do apologize. I've been... exceedingly hands off. I've cited my excuses (and I have been busy), but it was too long a hiatus, so I apologize for that too.

But enough qualifiers:
You call it a miscount (and I get that. Fair.); where does that leave us? Should I take it to mean that you feel that font/Moridin are equally scummy regardless of the second member? Not attempting to be combative, strictly curious.

Agreed that it looks pretty bleak for font in light of "fulldefense!Mafia." My thought process, however, was that Kalas led the vote on Bill Door in an attempt for town cred. If we hadn't all followed right in behind him, it is altogether possible that he would have quietly switched away. As it was, that was quickly impossible. At the very least, I don't believe him to be exonerated. Bill Door's early vote was a farce, and Kalas didn't provide a very ironclad (I can feel you snorting at /me/ mistrusting someone over not having an "ironclad" for voting. Stop it. That's not very nice. ) reason: it was more of a "oh look, scum" type vote. In that light, distancing seems at least equally possible to them being on the same team. Coupled with your softness towards Kalas, it makes me feel as though it's you and him that makes up the rest of the scum.

If I'm wrong about you; then he's probably town, because your logic is sound, if different from my own. He's on the scum side of null for me merely because because of your association, the Mason assessment, and some minor lurking (nothing like what I've done, granted, but some nonetheless), and his earlier game.

Moridin might be the best place to take this, honestly. It would be the least risk to the most reward in my eyes, after having really thought about everything. If he flips town, then Sesc and Kalas should probably die, in that order. There will be a few wagons to analyze, as well as some reactions and dynamics to gauge, but that how I'd imagine it would go.

If he flips scum, though, then that quickly transforms into Kalas and font (in that order). As that's a pretty big change, and lynching Sesc (pre-analysis of the wagons) yields only a name crossed off my list, I think Moridin might get my vote for now. Well, in theory. No actual votes for a few more hours.