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Do you think Harry ever became as skilled as Dumbledore and Voldemort?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Alexx, May 4, 2013.

  1. Invictus

    Invictus Master of Death

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    Hermione is an author avatar? Wow, that, makes sense. Really, never thought that. But now adding my two bits, Harry will never become as powerful as Dumbledore. Both Dumbledore and Voldermot sought power, they broke limits seeking that power. Dumbledore never really gave up the Hollows, his fascination with them killed him.

    Harry isn't like that. He always learned for necessity, he doesn't seek power, he only learn to survive. And also there is raw talent. Riddle and Dumbledore had loads of it in all areas. Harry? He is a great survavilist, besides that he is nothing special, except DADA
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
  2. Vandy222

    Vandy222 Fourth Year

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    The series is full of contradictions. But what we do know....

    Is that at age thirteen he could produce a full patronus, powerful enough to ward numerous dementors from Sirius. Hermoine ends up saying only a really powerful wizard could have done that...for what it's worth.

    He becomes head auror.

    When he does something extraordinary he either has help or the act was based on "love."

    In my opinion there were probably numerous acts of sacrifice in the past that never saved any child from the killing curse. Futhermore, James and Lily fought Voldemort off three times, so they would have had to have been pretty powerful themselves and likely would have produced a powerful heir. It is more reasonable, in my opinion, to assume that harry survived for multiple reasons...partly due to power, partly due to old magic.

    Harry was never a genius, never had a strong work ethic, and wasn't as skillful has Hermoine. Was he powerful? Probably, but that only means so much with all his other ordinary traits. So in the end, he was "reasonably talented" as Dumbledore said. Power, skill, intelligence, creativity...they are likely all part of a witch or wizard's prowess with a wand. One out of four is not enough to match Voldemort or Dumbledore.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2013
  3. Darth

    Darth Third Year

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    Can anyone say why Neville struggled early on at Hogwarts, but became competent later on? Was it a matter of confidence, innate magical ability, innate talent, intelligence or his ability to follow instructions? What changed?
     
  4. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Confidence, a new drive to succeed derived from a sense of purpose, and a wand that fit.
     
  5. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    No. She's just called that because some people rabidly hate her, and Rowling was once asked what character she emphasized with the most in an interview, and she said "probably Hermione, because I put a bit more of myself in her than I did any of the other characters."

    Anyone who actually writes knows that you put bits of yourself and people you know in every character you write. That's how you make them realistic and believable.

    Anybody who thinks Hermione is an authorial avatar doesn't know what the hell that word even means.
     
  6. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Well, she's definitely an authorial avatar when it comes to dispensing information essential to the plot. JKR said as much - that she uses Hermione and Dumbledore as the main conduits of information to the reader.
     
  7. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    That just means that she's an exposition device, though, and that we should assume anything Hermione or Dumbledore says that isn't contradicted is true. It doesn't make her or Dumbledore authorial avatars, though. That's something different. An authorial avatar implies some degree of self-insertion, even if they aren't an actual SI, and neither of them really fit that label.

    I suppose that you could argue it in Hermione's case, if you wanted to, but it's a fair stretch, and the only actual piece of evidence for it is what Rowling said, and most people who write can attest to putting various quantities of themselves into their characters, so I don't really see that as damning.

    [EDIT]

    Unless, of course, you define authorial avatar as a character that deliberately serves an express and explicit purpose for the author. But then, by that defination, most characters are authorial avatars, and it's not really a bad thing.
     
  8. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    It may not be that she put herself into Hermione, but that she put "more" of herself into her character than any other.

    She has been quoted as saying things to the effect of seeing Hermione as a kind of representation of her younger self, of having dated men like Ron, and finding her Harry. I remember a conversation on the forum a while back on the subject of this very quote (which I don't have), wondering why, if Hermione was indeed a self-insert, JK had mired her with an idiot, to which, Warlocke, I believe it was, wisely responded that she had had some restraint in the process.
     
  9. Lord Raine

    Lord Raine Disappeared DLP Supporter

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    I put more or less of myself in various characters I write as well, though, so I don't really see that as being all that damning. Maybe I'd be more willing to call foul on Hermione as being an authorial avatar if she never made mistakes or always had a solution to the current problem, but she does make mistakes, and she's been caught with her pants down on a variety of occasions.

    She's also admitted that Harry is a far better wizard and person than she herself is. Canon and Pottermore plays that out. Rowling may have said that Hermione has more of herself in her than any other character, but she's also said that out of all the main characters, Hermione would have been the most likely to go Dark. So there's that, too.
     
  10. wordhammer

    wordhammer Dark Lord DLP Supporter

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    I now feel the urge to write a story about how Exposition Lass was somehow corrupted by exposure to Gilderoy Lockhart, becoming Dark Exposition Lass- the Annihilator of Accuracy.
     
  11. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Rowling seems to associate the quest for deeper knowledge of magic (i.e. breaking the cosmos) with acts of tyranny, malice, etc. We also know that Hermione has a sometimes frightening capacity to bend rules she applies to others for causes she feels to be right. I could see it. She Confounds people at a distance at a whim, which Harry actually comments on (though in a cajoling way), erases fundamental memories, even of those she loves, without any kind of permission or consent, believing it to be "what's best for them," and (sometimes seriously) injures others in bouts of vindictive fury.

    Which makes me want to see something where Harry, as head of the Aurors, has to deal with Hermione as the next "Dark Lady." It would be a good way to examine how their personalities and magic would have developed in later years, seeing the strengths and weaknesses of each. Rowling said Harry would win in a straight-up fight after third year, but no one ever said Hermione would have to engage him in open combat.
     
  12. Darth

    Darth Third Year

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    Yes, she would be smart enough to deal with him before he even knew she was a threat to him. Just meet up with him, casually take out her wand and hit him with whatever she wants.
     
  13. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    I thought it'd be the opposite. That's like, the one situation where he might have a chance. I was thinking she'd be the type to just pull an Ebeneezer and drop a meteor on his house in the middle of dinner with Ginny and the kids.
     
  14. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    In the interest of full disclosure: I like Hermione. A lot. Early on, I'd hoped the books would be H/Hr.

    Although, I must admit, I do somewhat resent the number of lines and actions they stole from Harry and Ron in the interest of unnecessarily padding movie!Hermione's part.

    I still say she's closer to an author avatar than 'everyone puts a piece of themselves in their writing' would account for. Rowling's gone on at length, numerous times, about how she was so bookish and smart in school and blah blah I'm Hermione.
     
  15. Alexx

    Alexx Card Captored and buttsecksed

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    Dark Lady? Why would anyone follow a mudblood? And she hates Dark Arts remember what a bitch she was to Harry after he sliced Malfoy up.
     
  16. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    Hypocrisy is the oldest and most seductive of the Dark Arts.
     
  17. Darth

    Darth Third Year

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    Being Dark doesn't mean being against 'mudbloods', and I'm sure that at that level of power you can easily get some followers. Or even reinvent yourself with a new name and disfigure yourself like Voldemort and no-one will associate you with being a 'mudblood'.
     
  18. Hawkin

    Hawkin Chief Warlock

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    Who ever said Dark Lady meant being for Pureblood supremacy. Why not go the other way. After Voldemort's defeat, Hermione, Ron, and Harry worked tirelessly to remove any trace of corruption from the ministry of magic.

    However, Hermione quickly realized that nothing changed much. There are still pureblood advocating their supremacy, muggleborn still have difficulty finding jobs in the government and Shacklebolt can't do anything about it because the next in line for the post is some Pureblood supremacist. Hermione decides to take matters into her own hand and give muggleborn a place in the wizarding world.

    Quite a few plot holes, but I'm quite sure you could get something interesting with the basic premise. Actually, a story where Hermione became a 'Dark Lady' after Voldemort reigned during many years could be interesting (a bit like Dumbledore in Prince of a Dark Kingdom).
     
  19. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Yeah when I said 'Dark Lady' I didn't mean she would pick up the blood purity angle, since that would be weird, I was just seeking a term for the next villainous, murdering, magical terrorist.
     
  20. Warlocke

    Warlocke Fourth Champion

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    It has been done (not the Voldemort part, but still...). The first that, regrettably, leaps to mind is Dangerous by blacklotus.

    'Regrettably' because it last updated in February 2010 and, from the looks of things, has been abandoned. Also, because the story had its fair share of issues. It would have been nice to see it finished, though, and if the author could have smoothed out the shortcomings of the previous chapters.
     
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