I just wanted to point out that when ANBU are on guard duty in public like at the Chunnin Exams they wear cloaks to, I assume, cover their hair/protect their identity. IIRC that's how Kabuto was able to fly under the radar despite Sharigan Kakashi keeping an eye out for him.

But I think I remember the cloaks flying off in actual combat, I guess so it's less confusing, but anime logic.

Anyway I'm also going to be trying to post something fairly soon(?) that will be semi ANBU-centric. Starts during the third ninja war so it's more, Danzo/siginificant characters centric while it sets up a significant/drastic AU with a more militarized Hidden Village system, but it's to have more strategic ninja battles in the massive war Danzo instigates. It's supposed to be like a worst case Danzou, but I'm starting to like him, and dislike how he's portrayed in fics as an incompetent antagonist.

ROOT is going to be my work horse for setting up the AU, and the way Danzou would run it is pretty intresting to me. I don't really care for the bloody mist graduation test, but the tongue seals and completely covering up original idenitites, or having high profile shinobi secertly work with ROOT like Orochimaru, is cool. But I think he can be more competent if given the right chance.

 

I can respect you for trying to make sense of canon, but since we aren't given actual population sizes, I prefer stories that fib/stretch the limits. While there are some interesting aspects of a small village, the fact is... it's not logical. Ninja can't operate if they can't blend in. If everyone knows everyone everywhere, then they can't blend in, period. Population sizes have to be much larger than is allowed by a simple observation of canon.

And I know WHY hair is shown, why shinobi shout out their techniques (instead of whispering them?), why they wear silly outfits that attract attention, et cetera - it's because this is a shounen series. But when it comes to fanfiction, I feel like you have to bend canon to make it all work. I mean, if you're going to attempt a non-serious story, you can poke fun at things and be fine, but your story can't be poked full of holes if you're going for a more serious angle.

Maybe real-life covert ops don't involve ridiculous levels of misdirection, but this is ninja stuff. We don't even know for sure if ninja actually existed in real life (there is no physical evidence that they did), so I can safely say that real life doesn't apply to shinobi conduct. Doesn't it seem believable, that there would be organization of shinobi on such a level that the strongest shinobi would always think themselves such? But there would always be another layer. It's kind of stupid Kishimoto stops rank designation at "S" (or "SS"), there is always one rank above the top most rank, always.

But you are right that secrecy is probably an important factor, over skills. The ability to trust is critical. But, wouldn't shinobi always elect to not-trust their own shinobi? It's that paradox that makes the setting interesting to me. Sarutobi can never be for certain that one of his loyal shinobi is not merely a well-in-advance-planted agent, whose great great great grandmother was from Iwa, or something ridiculous like that, so he must always test those he gives assignments to. It's also importnat not everyone know everything. A majority of shinobi must be kept in the dark, to preserve secrecy and stability. Really, the Hokage can't even know everything either. My theory is that if Kishimoto were playing Naruto in a more straight manner, the story would be more about this game of allies playing allies, or rather, people always second guessing the motives of their friends and their enemies.

 

One thing to point out: "Shinobi" almost certainly existed in Japan, in some form.

Now, were these the hyper stealthy ninja clans that directly opposed the samurai that popular culture would have you believe? Almost certainly not (though I would be surprised if none of it was real). But you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that none of the noble and/or samurai families in feudal Japan had assassins in their employ, and it's practically guaranteed that at least one of them turned it into a family trade. Much like how the exact same thing happened in Europe.

"Shinobi" has acquired a semi-mystical air in the West, and subsequently in Japan in response when it originally was fairly mundane and synonymous with "spy".

 

Shinobi are kept in the dark about a lot of things. Look how little Team 7 knows when they graduate from the academy. Part of that of course has to do with Kishimoto explaining things to them in order to explain to us, but not all of it. Even chuunin and jounin characters often seem to lack information that could be useful.

However, I disagree about the village size being an issue in the manner you are thinking. The sprawling civilian populations and "civilian councils" that plague fanfiction are more a detriment than anything. Konoha is strictly speaking a military village. The civlians who are there serve ninjas.

The fact that everybody knows everybody might make it hard to hide who you are and what you do, but it also makes it real easy to spot infiltrators. I'm betting it's damn hard to sneak into a hidden village unless you know its secrets. Unfortunately for Konoha, Orochimaru did.

The more people who are around you, the easier it is for an assassin to slide in and kill you without ever being detected. The barrier works because a manageable number of people cross it on a typical day. Patrols work because they recognize when something is out of place. And spilling secrets to the enemy is much harder because you're surrounded by people who know you.

A massively large Konoha would make for an interesting AU if played right, but that doesn't mean that's the way it should be.

Real life black ops does involve a tremendous amount of misdirection and while I never meant for you to take from my post that ANBU should mimic SOCOM or any of the alphabet agencies, it's natural to think about what works in real life when designing fictional systems. (Seal Team Six? Does that mean there's also a Team Five? Maybe, maybe not.) It's not misdirection I have an issue with. This whole 5 tier system? Yeah, that's the part. Real life covert ops is a little more fluid than that, and a large part of the game is that field operatives rarely have much of a complete picture -- they just know what's relevant to their specific task.

That part in my last post about lockers? I don't know if ANBU actually have separate locker rooms/shower areas. I'd guess they do so they can change out of their ANBU gear before going home. Well, let's say your locker room has mostly ANBU assassins. Maybe the guy next to you is actually with counter intelligence. Maybe you know him and where he works. Or maybe you don't. Maybe the only people you know for sure are your own teammates. Your squad needs not co-mingle with other squads, even if they also do assassination work and you probably don't interact much with your teammates outside of missions unless you knew them before ANBU. So even if you figure out that most of the people who use your locker room are with assassination, you don't know that everybody is.

But, you aren't exactly there just to hide the other guy's identity. You're not on a lower tier of secrecy persay. Maybe you're an assassin whose locker is in a room full of counter intelligence guys. It could go either way because it's not one group hiding the other, but both groups being used to hide the other.

The issue with your tier system is that when you say "tier 1 hides tier 2, tier 2 hides tier 3, etc" by necessity there has to be a pyramid hierarchy. For every guy on tier 3 you need X guys on tier 2 covering him and for every guy on tier 2 you need X guys on tier 1. So for each guy on tier 5 you need X^4 guys covering him and I guarantee that X is bigger than 2. Pretty soon you find that you need tens of thousands of guys on tier 1 for this to work. And the worst part? One security leak on a higher tier would blow the ENTIRE thing.

Instead, use fluidity. Misdirect not through a pyramid structure, but by implying things that aren't true.

 

Ninjas from Iga actually fought against Oda Nobunaga, one of the prominent warlords from the Sengoku period. They were massacred though. A few survived and served the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Interesting fact : a few shinobis in Naruto really existed, like Hattori Hanzo.

Yes, Seal Team 5 exists. Most people just know ST6 because lolCOD

I agree. Although I haven't found a lot of fics detailing Konoha and the ANBU in a realistic way, unfortunately.

 

Where's this idea that everyone recognizes everyone coming from? The Sai example doesn't make sense. No one had a clue who Sai was the first time, and the second time Shikamaru and Chouji recognized him from before but still didn't know who he was until the situation was explained.

The times when a shinboi shouts their jutsu are the exception, not the norm. Usually it's just printed in bold on the page like here or it's in a thought bubble like here, and then there are times we're the jutsu name doesn't come at all. Calling your attack is fairly uncommon.

And the clothing thing isn't really an issue either since the outfits they wear are only outlandish from our POV; in-universe they don't appear to stand out, at least in their native countries. No-one bats an eye at Jiraiya walking around in a kabuki outfit. If needed, then they can change clothes when they need to or just transform which is the entire point of the jutsu. Or take off the headband that says "I am a ninja".

 

The real life clans usually ended up as gardeners and cooks didn't they? something about the nobility employing them before finding out ninja skills were basically dropping rocks on people walking through mountain passes and similar kinds of things. Not really assassin skills to pass down in any case.

Read the Naruto thinks like Minato one, not the absolutely worst thing I've read recently, decent enough if you can put up with "my parents did something bad and everyone hates me for that" and similar. Chunin tests were different enough, but it's going to end up in super territory soon. Still chucked it on my alert list, they can spell properly so a big plus in the authors favor.

Shadenight is a big YMMV. I saw someone call it Grimderp somewhere (I thought this was an accurate description), but a lot of it, (from the 6/7 chapters I did read), basically boils down to a mixture of "Woe is me" and "Everyone is mean/ break the main character". It's better written than the usual stuff along those lines, but personally I found it pretty dull really. Ohh and Dick! Minato that was a big put off.

 

Original Anbu outfit. (which is what it should be all the time)

 

I don't know why you're bringing up jutsu name shouting, but I agree on that.

Either you're misinterpreting what I mean when I say everyone knows everyone or we're fundamentally in disagreement. I do not mean that everyone personally knows everyone or anything like that. What I mean is that if you're a chuunin and there's someone there who is out of place you would recognize the fact that they are not a familiar face.

To make my argument, let's start by talking real life. Most American high schools in and around cities are of comparable size to Konoha's ninja population based on my earlier estimates. My own high school had about 1750 students. After just four years I knew most of the people in my grade and could at least recognize all of them by face without a single exception. The grades immediately above me and below me I could recognize almost everyone. The grade two years above me I could probably recognize at least half and the one two years below me probably more like two thirds. A few months ago someone I bumped into someone I hadn't seen in close to a decade and we instantly recognized each other even though I barely knew her to begin with.

It is logical to assume that ninja are trained to be more observant of their surroundings than I am and they are living in the same village as these people for their entire lives.

Now let's forget real life and talk manga.

During the first part of the chuunin exam, the jounin senseis lamented the fact that Ibiki was the first examiner. When Kurenai asked why the others explained that he's in charge of torture and interrogation. One would expect that Ibiki's position is actually supposed to be secretive, but the other jounin give away this secret. Why? You can say that Kishimoto was telling us as much as he was Kurenai, but there are other ways to tell us and still keep the secret from Kurenai. It's a conscious decision to let her know. So again, why? The logical reason is that as a trusted jounin Kurenai is supposed to about other people in the village. All one big family.

You might try to turn this on its head and say "Kurenai didn't know Ibiki so not everyone knows everyone," but again, not what I ever meant to begin with. If chuunin!Kurenai saw him walking down the street wearing his forehead protector she would know "yes, he's a Konoha nin" even if she doesn't know him personally or by reputation. As a jounin she's outright told his reputation by her peers.

Another example is Danzou, who expresses pride at having kept his name so well hidden despite his power within the village and his skill as a ninja. And yet despite this his reputation is well known amongst the other Kages and assassins try to off him the moment he steps foot outside the village. So secretive, right?

And then there's the whole chuunin exam system. Ninja are being showcased not only in front of the village but in front of potential spies and clients. A one on one tournament format? That's not a substitute for war. The chuunin exam setup promotes growth of individual reputation.

And then there's the whole client system. As mercenaries, the accomplishments of the individual must be documented in order to get the best price.

Ninja are protective of the secrets of their bodies and how their techniques work (well, kind of, but in a serious story they should be), but there is no effort made to protect their identities.

This is why Sai was an issue. He wasn't recognized and it's strongly implied that he should have been if he really were a Konoha ninja. Not that they'd know his name or his reputation necessarily, but they should have at least seen him around the village.

ANBU is probably the only exception to this, but in a village where everyone's identities are known, anyone who is a friend or family member can probably figure out that you are ANBU very easily. Only if you isolate yourself from your peers can you hide this. But in the same regard, those who are most isolated from their peers also present the most risk of turning traitor.

 

Ah, I misunderstood. It sounded to me like you were saying that Team 10 recognized Sai (despite being in Root) which proved that everyone knows everyone in a sense. Obviously that didn't happen but that's not what you meant. My bad. The bit about jutsu and clothing was directed at Chime's 'complaints' about certain aspects of canon.

 

Oh.

Well, a couple things I didn't address in my last wall of text:

@Hachi: I've never actually played COD. A military channel documentary I saw claimed that there is no Seal Team Five, that the name Team Six was given to confuse America's enemies. Although that may have been a lie for all I know. *Shrug*

@Chime: I never addressed the whole S-rank thing. Roughly speaking the system is as follows:
E-rank -> academy level
D-rank -> gennin level
C-rank -> chuunin
B-rank -> special jounin
A-rank -> jounin
S-rank -> Kage level

It's not an exact match. Letter ranks aren't actually used in canon for anyone who is not a missing-nin, and the only rank that I know for sure comes up is S-rank.

Every member of Akatsuki other than Nagato, Konan, Zetsu and Tobi is a known missing-nin who is known to be incredibly powerful and executed horrific crimes:
Itachi: credited with single handedly slaughtering Konoha's most powerful clan (although actually had Tobi's help). Later defeated Orochimaru, if his skill needed proof.
Orochimaru: performed horrific experiments. Killed two Kages.
Kisame: killed a daimyo. Killed his master, one of the seven swordsmen.
Sasori: killed the Sandaime Kazekage (although this was not known). Made living puppets. By his own word "took down a country."
Kakuzu: survived a fight with Senju Hashirama. Killed the elders of Takigakure.
Hidan: slaughtered everyone in Yugakure
Deidara: engaged in terrorist bombings "for the sake of art."

It's unclear how much S-rank has to do with the nature of the crime and how much it has to do with the skill of the opponent. I'd guess that depends on whether S-rank corresponds to the importance of the mission of assassinating the target or the danger associated with assassinating the target.

So in light of this, in light of the crimes (including assassinating Kages) and the danger (Kage level, all of them), a higher rank does not make sense.

That doesn't mean that all S-rank are created equal, just as all Kages are not created equal. But there's nothing above Kage.

 

I'm completely at odds with the ranking system. Real shinobi would use it as misdirection. Hell, if I were to write an up-and-coming-Itachi story (basically, the depiction of Itachi's rise through the ranks as a child), I'd say he did everything he did to get into ANBU at 12 using only E-ranked jutsu. Bunshin, shunshin, kawarimi, and henge are all that you need to get stuff done, furthermore, Itachi's rise to power, at least, how I'd depict it, would be Itachi mastering E-ranked skills only, to the point where he began to blend them together seemlessly. He taught himself to perform shunshin and kawarimi almost simultaneously, or henge, bunshin and shunshin all at once (resulting in his trademark "crow"-based movement).

But yeah, my point is - if you combined all the E-ranked skills, you have everything that you need. Why would a ninja need to breathe fire? It would certainly have rather limited applications if your goal is to be stealthy or even kill someone - it's much faster to stab someone in the skull than it is to roast them alive.

Real shinobi would abuse a ranking system and pretend to be academy-level students their whole lives. They wouldn't even get onto a bingo book. I mean, what do we know officially that counters the henge? Nothing yet, as far as I can tell. Maybe scent-based techniques, but with the proper use of the henge, anybody could be anybody.

There are so many problematic elements at the surface-level of Naruto's world-design that you need to make up certain details or your story makes no sense under scrutiny.

As for my comment about the uncertainty of real-life shinobi existing... I meant it mainly as physical evidence. We have hundreds of samurai swords lying around, but none we cann say belong to any shinobi. We have no weapons, no official documents, not a single thing that physically proves shinobi existed. We have stories, legends, et cetera, but even the word shinobi had other meanings before it came to refer to assassins.

Did Japanese lords employ assassins and under-handed tactics? Sure, but largely the concept of a shinobi/ninja is made up, at least, we can't prove otherwise, so I think it's unfair to apply real-life concepts to their manner of organization. It's open to each author's interpretation and how they lay things down to be internally consistent.

I don't want to say that what you or anyone else is doing that's wrong, just that, there is no definitive right way to go about writing shinobi society. Kishimoto offers vague uncertainties at best and at times ideas and figures that are contrary to common logic. People are welcome to interprit things and write things in their own manner. In-fact, for us to even try to establish some sort of canon is destructive. Stories are best when there is mystery and ambiguity. When everything is nailed down and flat, people lose interest and everything stagnates.

 

I agree and disagree. If you're reading/following Naruto, the shounen series, it's perfectly fine that there be inconsistensies. This isn't a seinen series or a historical story on ninja.

But for writing/reading certain kinds of fanfiction, the suspension of disbelief requires certain elements be addressed.

 

??

The ranking of a jutsu is probably related to difficulty. I have no idea why that should be a problem. If a jutsu is effective there's no reason not to learn it. By deliberately restricting yourself to the most basic techniques you are limiting your strategic options. Moreover, you are guaranteed to eventually reach a wall with what those techniques can do.

It's not like you're running around to the world bragging about every single ninjutsu in your arsenal and exactly what rank it is. It's your accomplishments that define you as a ninja, not the techniques in your arsenal. When people do become known for particular techniques it's generally because those techniques are game changers on a level that mainstream jutsu cannot compare to e.g. Hiraishin. Don't even try to pretend that Shunshin compares.

Why breath fire? How about so you can attack multiple targets? How about so you can force a group of enemies to scatter? Or attack a target other than a person, such as a wooden house? Do you have any idea how dangerous fires used to be in cities?! Even to this day...

And when is Itachi of all people seen using fire techniques wastefully? Perhaps only when testing Sasuke's power? Itachi is arguably the best in the manga at seamlessly fusing ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu.

Kawarimi and Shushin (actually D rank) are just high speed movement techniques. The ninjutsu element of the technique is in the distraction for you to make your mistake, Kawarimi leaving an object behind that they momentarily believe is you, and Shunshin obscuring your movements.

Kawarimi is actually a real life technique used by ancient ninjas and modern day magicians (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kawarimi). Kawarimi has never to the best of my memory been seen used against a jounin level opponent. That is probably because they are too aware of their surroundings to be fooled so easily. Supposedly an optical effect makes your opponent momentarily believe that the log you've left behind is actually you.

Shunshin is used frequently by high level ninjas frequently but requires you to momentarily be separated from your opponents so that you have enough time to perform the technique. It's an outstanding technique that we've seen used by high level opponents, but it's not without limitation.

Bunshin is not terribly useful in light of more advanced clone techniques. Sakura could immediately tell that Naruto's clones were physical in like chapter 4 due to the fact that their feet were impacting the ground. Against a high level ninja? Unless your clone is just standing there literally doing nothing it's better to use physical clones.

Henge is the only one I'll agree with you on. It's so underutilized. Naruto is the only character in the manga who uses it effectively and even he could use it a lot more.

Ironically, fanon over powers Kawarimi and Shunshin due to common misunderstandings and under powers Henge to make Naruto look good (*facepalm*). Every fanfic I see that goes out of its way to utilize Kawarimi and Shunshin more ends up sucking something fierce by rewriting these techniques to make them broken. Meanwhile Henge is commonly rewritten into a genjutsu when it actually *IS* a physical transformation because authors want to make Naruto's henge "special." Gag. Can't he just be exceptionally skilled at that technique?

 

Henge is commonly rewritten into a genjutsu because it being a physical transformation is hilariously broken.

 

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

 

If anyone complains about me waking them up 5 am by laughing I am blaming you.

 

For Kawarimi: Deidara uses against Naruto and Sasuke, Sasuke uses it against Deidara, Kakashi uses it against Zabuza and vice versa (I think) Yamato uses it against Orochimaru, Kakashi uses it against Pein and Pein uses it against Jiraiya.

I don't think Kawarimi and Shunshin are particularly similar. With Kawarimi you "quickly replace yourself with a plant or animal" but we aren't given the actual mechanics whilst Shunshin is "supercharging the body with chakra" to almost move faster than the eye can see. I think it'd be mentioned if they had similar principles.

And I don't really get why people continue to think that Henge is broken. It's a disguise; you change your shape, size and appearance to look like something else. With some skill and imagination, you can get a lot of mileage out of it even in combat but it isn't game breaking.


And to post something on-topic:

For a Season
As far as Sakura's concerned, she has more than a paycheck coming to her after being personally requested by the Mizukage and shipped off to Mist as part of a diplomatic deal. After all, a team of painfully green medics is one thing, but she draws a line at tetchy, old hunter-nin. Crack, character study, crack, friendship, and crack.
Rated: Fiction T - English - Friendship/Romance - Ao & Sakura H. - Chapters: 3 - Words: 18,944 - Reviews: 112 - Favs: 148 - Follows: 175 - Updated: 12-20-12 - Published: 07-26-12

Something that got recc'd to me not that long ago. It's nothing special but makes for an alright time waster.

The Broken Tool
Haku is alive, barely, after the battle at the bridge. With his master, Zabuza, dead and a team of vengeful hunter ninja close on his trail can he hope to last long? Haku X female OC. Please read & review, all comments and advice are appreciated.
Rated: Fiction T - English - Adventure/Romance - Haku & Inari - Chapters: 23 - Words: 169,172 - Reviews: 239 - Favs: 220 - Follows: 97 - Updated: 08-16-08 - Published: 01-14-07 - Status: Complete - id: 3341405

A old fic now but still enjoyable, I think. Probably not something you'd typically read but I found this a few years back and, as a Haku fan, I'd say this is one of the best fics that involve him as a main character. It also has a sequel that I'm still following.

The Place Beyond
Good timber does not grow with ease; the stronger the wind, the stronger the trees. Hashirama/Mito, one-shot.
Rated: Fiction T - English - Mito U. & Hashirama S. - Words: 16,163 - Reviews: 45 - Favs: 113 - Follows: 9 - Published: 10-11-10 - Status: Complete - id: 6391821

A rather long one-shot covering the lives of Mito and Hashirama immediately after Madara's death and Mito become the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki.

 

Has this thread now replaced "Other Fandoms Almost Recommendable"?

If you think the stories are actually "Quality Naruto fics", please put them up for review. (I hope I linked the correct one.)

If this is the new place to put Naruto stories that likely won't have a chance for the library, I'll contribute this:

Black Cloaks, Red Clouds by Archontruth
Summary: In a world where Orochimaru is Hokage and the Hidden Villages are ruled by tyrants, Tenten finds the lines between ally and enemy blurring when a desperate strategy lands her in the company of enigmatic strangers who wear black cloaks with red clouds. DeiTen and NejiTen. Contains adult themes.
WIP at 183k words

It's centered on Tenten and in an AU world, so it will likely receive a lot of bad ratings if I put it up for review, but I really enjoyed it. Don't be put off by the first couple of chapters. I didn't really enjoy the back and forth between present and flashbacks either.
It's really interesting how a lot of the characters have been turned around. Naruto and Konohamaru are pretty despicable and Akatsuki are quite a bit nicer than in canon.
It really gets going with the Chuunin exams later on and I did not expect to care so much about the OCs.