I think this hits on the real issue, the whole "honor among thieves" thing. When people have taken my story ideas and run with them without attribution, it pisses me off without fail. When they've asked me to borrow a story idea, I've always said, "Sure, knock yourself out." I just want to be in the know even if I may disagree with the direction a story goes (hello, Darth Marrs). It's the smallest price to ask for originating the idea, I figure, and it's what I ask of anyone taking over one of my stories.

It's basic courtesy to ask an author if you can take over their (possibly abandoned) story and it's something we all should practice, no matter what the legality. There's no shortage of abandoned stories out there if you simply must take one over as opposed to coming up with your own story ideas.

 

My personal feel? when I see a plot bunny I like, that I want a tiny piece of for Ascension (my giant project, yes I'm still planning D8 ) I always ask, even if a single facet of a thought that's never brought to fruition is all I want to take.

I can't imagine using all of someone else's story to build off without them offering to me, even when I acquire other people's creations on the seven seas, I never do something different with it. I leave it just how it is.

 

Writers steal ideas all the time, whether we're aware of it or not. We've read hundreds or thousands of stories in our lives, and those influence us. As an example, I read The Dresden Files recently. It made me want to write a novel about the Sidhe. So I did. But I didn't write the same story - I wrote my story about the same thing. What happened, how it happened, and how that thing was presented were totally different.

In fanfiction, this is often taken to a new extreme. A person will come along wanting to write a story with the exact same premise. They write the same story. It turns out to be different, however slightly. Perhaps they copied an idea, or perhaps they wrote their story in parallel to the first; different stories following the same path.

I'm fine with all of these, because they're caused by people who want to write a certain thing. Straight out 'adoption' of abandoned stories leaves me feeling uneasy. It seems to me that these 'writers' are not wanting to write the story, but to have written it. They want it for free without putting in the effort of writing it, and by adopting a story, they're claiming 30, 50, 100k words in an instant.

Like Pers said, we're a community. We all want to do the same thing, and I can understand somebody wanting to write the same story as someone else. My only problem with it comes when somebody wants ownership of the story rather than the opportunity to write it.

 

That's exactly my point, that it shouldn't be considered thievery or a sign of lack of respect, at least not if the author gives credit where credit is due. If anything it's flattery, which is how JK Rowling takes it or else she'd have pulled a GRRM and none of us would be here.

The original reason this was brought up, if you click on the link in the first post, is a story by TheJackOfDiamonds. His last activity on the websites we know about (DLP, FFnet, blogspot) is February 2007. I believe someone also mentioned trying to get in touch with him and not getting any response. The threat to ban says what you two are saying: that continuing the guy's story (since it seems nobody will ever obtain permission) is disrespectful and anybody with a conscience could see that. I'm pretty sure I have a conscience, and I don't see it at all. Obtaining permission obviously would have been best, but I don't see an issue with merely continuing the story with attribution.

I will admit Kurinoone lifting his plot and becoming more popular probably bummed Project Dark Overlord out, but he almost certainly got some of her readers, too, so she made his story more popular as well. It's not a zero-sum game, and there's no guarantee that the people that found Kurinoone's story would have found PDO's instead if hers hadn't existed. That she didn't give him credit at first is a bit slimy, but once she did I think it helped both of them.

 

I think with regards to a true fanfic of a fanfic, the best median policy is probably:

0) Always attribute
1) Never reproduce text, a link back to the original is good
2) Make a reasonable attempt to contact the writer to ask permission
2a) The writer is a bit of a hypocrite if he says no, but its probably best not to pursue things after that
2b) If you can't contact the writer after a reasonable effort and a reasonable amount of time due to them being gone from the internet, it's probably fine if you follow 0) and 1), especially since a writer gone from the internet is no longer competing with you for reviews and attention.

 

The problem is that it is not your intellectual property, but you're appropriating half the story or however much to yourself and the continuing on. With or without attribution, you have taken something that is not yours to take. Would you jump the fence and steal a hundred 2x4's, sheetrock, etc., from your neighbor's house to build on yours, just because you asked him if you could use it since he wasn't using it anymore, and didn't get an answer?

Just because it's in electrons doesn't make it any less a theft. No permission, no use. If you get permission, that's an entirely different story.

I haven't read either story, so I don't know how close it is, but if you can read one story and it reminds you of the other for more than a couple scenes, then IMO, it falls into the same thing as above. (Except of course, if you gain permission, or are paying homage to another story).

I really don't get this. If I'm trying to be a good writer in and of myself, why would I ever want to cheat myself out of the work it takes to be a good writer?

 

Fuck you. Digital replication is not theft and any analogy implying it is makes it clear that you're a complete and total fuckwit.

This is fanfiction. The entire existence of fanfiction is dependent on the assumption that derivative works are completely acceptable, even in the absence of explicit permission from the original author. Right now you're giving fanfiction writers more power over derivative works than actual writers and that's just ridiculous.

 

It's not that simple, because it's not really the author's intellectual property either. At least some (if not all) of it is JK Rowling's, and we have her (verbal) permission to use it. And if you're writing Dresden Files fanfiction, for example, Jim Butcher requires you to give everybody else permission to write a derivative work.

I would agree that if The Santi says nobody can write an ending to his story but him, then everyone should and probably would respect that even if they disagree and even if he can't stop it from happening.

GRRM says the exact same thing about fanfiction: that aspiring writers should write their own stories because copying other writers' ideas is counterproductive (I'm paraphrasing, because the only source I've found just says he "won't repeat the reasons he's against it here"). But we know that HP fanfiction provides a much larger readership than 99.999% of us could otherwise draw from original fiction. Continuing a popular abandoned story could very well extend those same benefits.

+1 internet to you, sir. Fantastic summary of this thread.

 

Exactly. Direct copying of large sections of text is bad, but anything else is fair game (copying storylines, copying characters, copying ideas), and even asking for permission is optional.

Of course honor is a large part of this and it's nice to shout out if there's significant influence from others, but bitching about it if there's not won't achieve anything. I'd be rather flattered if someone thought my ideas among the million were good enough to reproduce.

 

While I wouldn't care if someone blatantly ripped me off I can see why others would.

All writers put a little of themselves into work that they write, to a greater or lesser extent. For some people, myself included, this can be a deeply visceral thing. The themes I employ, the characterisations I produce, the stories I craft come from my own emotional range. Unlike professional authors who are recompensed with fame and money, the only thing I get in return for offering this piece of myself is acknowledgement from those who read it.

I'm relatively confident in my own writing, I'm arrogant enough to say that if anyone comes along and thinks they can write my stories better than me, they're welcome to try. But this isn't the case for all authors. If I were less confident and someone else stole my story and my audience, or even a little piece of either of these, it might well touch a nerve.

 

according to https://forums.darklordpotter.net/rules.php

What is quite hilarious as under strict interpretation any story happening after canon requires Rowling sending PM to admins of DLP that he agrees for publication of this story.

I think that completing story, copying entire scenes or chapters requires permission from author. But I see no problem in making sequels, parodies and fics of fics and saying something else as fanfiction writer/reader is ridiculous ("I will reuse original book under fair use or with "nobody will bother to sue me" but my stuff is mine, copyrighted, holy and mine! You can not use it!").

 

A lot of good points made in this thread. Pretty good discussion. Hopefully we won't all get banhammered in the end.

I think DLP's policy is about community standards. It is a community based on respect for quality (and resounding scorn for mediocrity), which I think the "no taking over someone else's work" supports.

So, while I understand and agree that fanfic writers who make "sequels" to established fanfics or who "adopt" an abandoned story (without copying what another writer wrote) aren't plagiarizing, I also understand DLP's standard.

 

What's hilarious is that you draw that conclusion. Please apply the law of common sense for all our sakes.

 

I thought I would add some perspective on the plagiarism subject. There are quite a few cultures that place a different value on copying ones work.


A Different Perspective on Plagiarism

Here is a piece of the article.

I only have personal experience with Chinese students. When they are taught to write, they are generally told to find a author of authority (which means someone who is a highly revered as a writer, 三字经, for example) and told to copy them. There is a Chinese axiom, “天下文章一大抄”. Translated, “all written works are copied from others works". They believe that as a beginner you don't have the ability or experience to write well, and as such, should copy your betters. By memorizing their works you can mimic their style and become a better writer.

Now I also don't condone in Plagiarism, I'm a westerner too. But sometimes they don't actually understand what they are doing is wrong by our standards. If you were to tell them this, they would be appalled that what they were doing was disrespectful to the author (And of course there are those that just don't care either way).

This post was merely something that popped into my head as I saw the rapid frothing of fangs when the idea of plagiarism was brought up and I thought I would inform you that it is viewed differently elsewhere.

 

Wait . . . you seriously believe that copying a chapter or five word for word is a derivative work? :awesome

 

Your mom is a derivative work.

 

We're all derivative works . . .